Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,036
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Post by Sibboleth on Dec 22, 2017 22:38:28 GMT
One of these days people will learn that when there are ethnic or communal conflicts - whether political (as in this case) or literal - there isn't a good side and a bad side.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2017 22:41:17 GMT
Neither pro independence or pro Cs but this result is almost perfect. By retaining their majority its two fingers to the national government after enforcing direct rule. Also by opting to choose the centre pro business party when they could have opted for PP the centre right pro business party instead relegating them to last on 4% its the ultimate humiliation.
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
Posts: 6,137 
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Post by Foggy on Dec 22, 2017 23:16:38 GMT
A shame to see the pro-independence parties retain their majority, but I suppose a continuation of this self-induced crisis is what the Catalan people really want. That's just falling into the separatist trap of treating only pro-independence Catalans as 'true' Catalans. This isn't an ethnic conflict anyway. Andalusians and Castillians are of the same ethnicity as Catalans. It's not a cultural one either. Catalan culture is part of Spanish culture. All EU citizens resident in Catalonia had the right to vote this week and that is only good and proper. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 24, 2017 13:27:47 GMT
Silly trying to deny that people who moved to Catalonia from elsewhere are less likely to be in favour of independence. And so those who are Catalan by birth and also speak the language much more likely to be in favour.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2017 13:58:23 GMT
A shame to see the pro-independence parties retain their majority, but I suppose a continuation of this self-induced crisis is what the Catalan people really want. That's just falling into the separatist trap of treating only pro-independence Catalans as 'true' Catalans. This isn't an ethnic conflict anyway. Andalusians and Castillians are of the same ethnicity as Catalans. It's not a cultural one either. Catalan culture is part of Spanish culture. All EU citizens resident in Catalonia had the right to vote this week and that is only good and proper. That is like claiming there is no difference between Swedish and Norwegian culture, and that they are the same ethnicity, or Macedonian and Bulgarian for that matter. Catalans and Castilians are related, but different peoples, and while the cultural differences may be relatively small they do exist. |
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
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Posts: 6,137
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Post by Foggy on Dec 24, 2017 14:03:08 GMT
Silly trying to deny that people who moved to Catalonia from elsewhere are less likely to be in favour of independence. Yes, it would be, but I don't see anybody in this thread doing that. |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Dec 24, 2017 15:44:44 GMT
Silly trying to deny that people who moved to Catalonia from elsewhere are less likely to be in favour of independence. And so those who are Catalan by birth and also speak the language much more likely to be in favour. Not really when you realise Carles Puigdemont has banned all other languages, now as the majority of working class are Castilian speakers they are annoyed that there children are persecuted by the Catalan Nationalists. Most non Catalans supporting Separation voted CUP who watched their support collapse to a point they do not have enough members to form a bloc. |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Dec 24, 2017 15:47:37 GMT
Silly trying to deny that people who moved to Catalonia from elsewhere are less likely to be in favour of independence. Yes, it would be, but I don't see anybody in this thread doing that. I am, the divisive nature of the Separatists campaigning is turning it into an identity thing, now this other C's eedjit is doing it from the other side. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 24, 2017 16:05:08 GMT
Yes, it would be, but I don't see anybody in this thread doing that. I am, the divisive nature of the Separatists campaigning is turning it into an identity thing, now this other C's eedjit is doing it from the other side. Clearly a very strong divide which hasn't been solved by this election. |
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
Posts: 6,137
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Post by Foggy on Dec 24, 2017 16:08:19 GMT
Yes, it would be, but I don't see anybody in this thread doing that. I am, the divisive nature of the Separatists campaigning is turning it into an identity thing, now this other C's eedjit is doing it from the other side. Well, then you are being silly. Puigdemont has not banned all other languages. He's been speaking French on Belgian TV, for starters, and he supported the 2006 Statute of Autonomy (before the courts struck some of it down) which recognised Aranese as a co-official minority language within Catalonia. The CUP are the most likely party to claim Spanish is 'asphyxiating' Catalan and that its use should be outlawed. That can be offputting to people who are only one or two generations removed from other regions of Spain. For an 'internationalist' group they can be very inward-looking with their EUsceptic and anti-tourist views, too. Turning the campaigning into a question of identity is something both sides have done, yes. That's not the same as claiming those of Andalusian and Castillian origin are less inclined to vote for separation. |
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Post by jimboo2017 on Dec 24, 2017 18:02:01 GMT
I am, the divisive nature of the Separatists campaigning is turning it into an identity thing, now this other C's eedjit is doing it from the other side. Well, then you are being silly. Puigdemont has not banned all other languages. He's been speaking French on Belgian TV, for starters, and he supported the 2006 Statute of Autonomy (before the courts struck some of it down) which recognised Aranese as a co-official minority language within Catalonia. The CUP are the most likely party to claim Spanish is 'asphyxiating' Catalan and that its use should be outlawed. That can be offputting to people who are only one or two generations removed from other regions of Spain. For an 'internationalist' group they can be very inward-looking with their EUsceptic and anti-tourist views, too. Turning the campaigning into a question of identity is something both sides have done, yes. That's not the same as claiming those of Andalusian and Castillian origin are less inclined to vote for separation. Have read the education and language acts, not being silly |
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
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Posts: 6,137
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Post by Foggy on Dec 24, 2017 21:33:24 GMT
Well, then you are being silly. Puigdemont has not banned all other languages. He's been speaking French on Belgian TV, for starters, and he supported the 2006 Statute of Autonomy (before the courts struck some of it down) which recognised Aranese as a co-official minority language within Catalonia. The CUP are the most likely party to claim Spanish is 'asphyxiating' Catalan and that its use should be outlawed. That can be offputting to people who are only one or two generations removed from other regions of Spain. For an 'internationalist' group they can be very inward-looking with their EUsceptic and anti-tourist views, too. Turning the campaigning into a question of identity is something both sides have done, yes. That's not the same as claiming those of Andalusian and Castillian origin are less inclined to vote for separation. Have read the education and language acts, not being silly I haven't read those particular bits of legislation as enacted, but I do know those are both policy areas where both the autonomous Catalan administration and the central government in Madrid have tried to take too hard a line, which does nobody any good. Anyway, the votes from abroad were counted today and one seat in Tarragona flipped. The PP will now have 4 seats after all (still not enough to form an official group in Parliament) at the expense of Ciutadans, who are back down to 36. All other parties and constituencies have an unchanged seat allocation. |
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Post by casualobserver on Dec 24, 2017 22:08:10 GMT
Eight of the newly elected representatives are either in jail or will be jailed if they return to Spain. ^ That might well make a unionist minority government a possibility. I find it telling that, in an EU country, the result of a democratic election could possibly be challenged by the simple expedient of locking up, or threatening to lock up, elected representatives who support the "wrong" side - and the EU remains remarkably quiet about this, whilst at the same time the EU are very keen to interfere in the internal affairs of countries such as Hungary and Poland. |
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Foggy
Non-Aligned
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Posts: 6,137
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Post by Foggy on Dec 24, 2017 22:16:12 GMT
^ That might well make a unionist minority government a possibility. No, they'd be replaced by other list candidates. Eight of the newly elected representatives are either in jail or will be jailed if they return to Spain. I find it telling that, in an EU country, the result of a democratic election could possibly be challenged by the simple expedient of locking up, or threatening to lock up, elected representatives who support the "wrong" side - and the EU remains remarkably quiet about this, whilst at the same time the EU are very keen to interfere in the internal affairs of countries such as Hungary and Poland. Did you miss the part where it was pointed out that their seats wouldn't simply be left empty? |
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Post by casualobserver on Dec 24, 2017 22:23:38 GMT
No, they'd be replaced by other list candidates. I find it telling that, in an EU country, the result of a democratic election could possibly be challenged by the simple expedient of locking up, or threatening to lock up, elected representatives who support the "wrong" side - and the EU remains remarkably quiet about this, whilst at the same time the EU are very keen to interfere in the internal affairs of countries such as Hungary and Poland. Did you miss the part where it was pointed out that their seats wouldn't simply be left empty? No, because the beauty of this system of Spanish democracy is that you just extend the scope of the arrests ..... www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/23/catalonia-peace-stall-arrests-tensions-judiciary |
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Post by casualobserver on Dec 24, 2017 22:25:14 GMT
If this were being done by the Polish Government, the EU would be up in arms.
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Post by jimboo2017 on Dec 25, 2017 2:40:36 GMT
Eight of the newly elected representatives are either in jail or will be jailed if they return to Spain. ^ That might well make a unionist minority government a possibility. I find it telling that, in an EU country, the result of a democratic election could possibly be challenged by the simple expedient of locking up, or threatening to lock up, elected representatives who support the "wrong" side - and the EU remains remarkably quiet about this, whilst at the same time the EU are very keen to interfere in the internal affairs of countries such as Hungary and Poland. Treason? Now as it is a list system next on the list will take over. Again - what is the use of a written constitution if a minority feel they can overthrow it. The constitution, cumbersome as it is, is designed to protect the relatively young democracy |
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 23,761
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Post by mboy on Dec 25, 2017 10:35:08 GMT
Did you miss the part where it was pointed out that their seats wouldn't simply be left empty? Well he missed the part where these projects repeatedly broke the law, and ignored multiple court orders... PS I don't think it's wise for the Spanish Prosecutors to widen the scope of arrests now, it's clearly a provocation. |
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Post by casualobserver on Dec 25, 2017 22:14:49 GMT
From Gaurdian article (link above): "A few days before Thursday’s election, Spain’s deputy prime minister, Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría, told a meeting of the Popular party faithful in Girona: “Who has ordered the liquidation of Catalan secessionism? Mariano Rajoy and the Popular party. Who has seen to it that the secessionists don’t have leaders because they’ve been beheaded? Mariano Rajoy and the Popular party.”"
It's a strange version of democracy where the deputy prime minister openly boasts that his party and prime minister, through managing the judicial system, had successfully "ordered the liquidation" and decapitation of opposition parties.
When earlier this year the Attorney General threatened to arrest 712 Catalan Mayors, it was already obvious that the Spanish Government's concept of democracy is seriously flawed ... this impression was reinforced by the Government's unnecessarily and astonishingly violent attacks on people exercising what they saw as their "right to vote". Yet the European "movement" (with the honourable and surprising exception of Belgium!) raised not a tweet in opposition to such tactics. It's really not surprising that some Catalans so pointedly paint the Spanish Government as being the political and spiritual successors to Franco.
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Post by jimboo2017 on Dec 25, 2017 23:23:48 GMT
Spain Judiciary is as free as ours, I see no H Blocks, this was an illegal referendum, designed to destroy Spain, a confederation of peoples and not a nation state in the European sense. The reason is it was the enemies and survivors of Franco that made the constitution so rigid. At every stage the Secessionist have lost all legal polls in relation to the popular vote. Close without doubt but I believe both sides have maxed out at stale mate. A point of interest, the right wing of the Secessionist movement are the Middle class Catalans whose families and businesses enriched themselves under Franco and have been seeking an escape of the burden caused by the bank collapse. The Guardia Civil acted like pussies compared to the Catalan Police whose reputation for violence surpasses that of any other force in the country.
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