Catalan Regional Election, 2017

[jimboo2017]

Jan 6, 2018 14:10:09 GMT East Anglian Lefty said:

There's no necessary opposition between being opposed to almost all nationalist movements and recognising a right to self-determination. You just have to want people to decide not to exercise the right.

In the midst of the crude realities of class society and when class antagonisms are sharpened to the uttermost, (the slogan: 'national right of self-determination') is simply converted into a means of bourgeois class rule.



Not that keen on self determination because it usually means sticking it to a minority, can't think of a successful movement within Europe

[jimboo2017]

Artur Mas announces his resignation as chairman of the PDeCat on Tuesday evening.

Former Catalan First Minister Artur Mas has announced his resignation as the chairman of the Catalan separatist party PDeCat.

"My decision is to resign as chairman of the PDeCat", he said during a press conference, adding that his "presence limits the expansion of Junts Per Catalunya" and that the number of legal cases against him "leaves me little room for manoeuvre".


tinyurl.com/yc7m58vz

[WJ]

I'm a little hazy on the specifics, but due to the elected members incarcerated or in exile, the independentists do not have a majority as they cannot vote ex-situ.

This seems to be exactly what JxCat and Esquerra want for three reasons. First, they can continue the Pythonesque "Help! Help! We're being repressed" line simmering away. Secondly, it means that they can avoid trying to govern together again when they have little in common, other than the independence question. Finally, it means that they can also avoid being held hostage by CUP who have gone on record to say that they will not support the government unless they acknowledge the independence declaration back in the autumn.

Thoughts? Tin-foil hats?

[Foggy]

Jan 9, 2018 22:09:32 GMT WJ said:

I'm a little hazy on the specifics, but due to the elected members incarcerated or in exile, the independentists do not have a majority as they cannot vote ex-situ.

This seems to be exactly what JxCat and Esquerra want for three reasons. First, they can continue the Pythonesque "Help! Help! We're being repressed" line simmering away. Secondly, it means that they can avoid trying to govern together again when they have little in common, other than the independence question. Finally, it means that they can also avoid being held hostage by CUP who have gone on record to say that they will not support the government unless they acknowledge the independence declaration back in the autumn.

Thoughts? Tin-foil hats?

The exiled and imprisoned leaders who were declared elected last month have apparently managed to 'present their credentials' in absentia to the clerk of the Catalan Parliament, but it remains to be seen when a decision will be made about their status. If things are in limbo then that would indeed leave the separatists without a majority. If it turns out they weren't eligible to be candidates then that would appear to benefit people further down their lists, rather than other parties (nor would it invalidate the whole election, although if there isn't a new President in a few months then we're heading for a new vote in the late spring or early summer anyway). There isn't much common ground amongst the non-secessionist parties either, so leaving the case of Puigdemont and Junqueras unresolved indefinitely wouldn't exactly help to stabilise the situation.

Your second paragraph is essentially my reading of the situation too. The shrieking propaganda about oppression is really getting out of hand. Assange and the Russians even managed to get #1octubreTV3 (the date of the referendum and the name of the regional public service broadcaster) trending worldwide on Twitter for a while yesterday. 

[neilm]

Puigdemont is trying for 'telematic investiture', he was at an event in Montpellier yesterday pushing the idea. I hadn't realised he'd left Belgium.

[Georg Ebner]

Jan 3, 2018 14:20:34 GMT johnloony said:

Some of the what-ifs of history are: what if Yugoslavia had included Bulgaria? Albania?

The annexion of Albania by SouthSlavia was intended by both, Tito AND Hoxha, but rejected by Stalin.

[mboy]

Might have saved a lot of trouble in the end if they'd just gone ahead and done it...

[Foggy]

Back on topic, the constituent sitting of the Parliament is due to take place on Wednesday. Forcadell has said she does not wish to continue as Speaker.

Mariano Rajoy admits that the application of Article 155 will continue if any attempt is made to invest Carles Puigdemont as President 'telematically'.

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2018 23:08:56 GMT Georg Ebner said:

Jan 3, 2018 14:20:34 GMT johnloony said:

Some of the what-ifs of history are: what if Yugoslavia had included Bulgaria? Albania?

The annexion of Albania by SouthSlavia was intended by both, Tito AND Hoxha, but rejected by Stalin.

Albania isn't a Slavic country why would they have done that?

[Deleted]

Jan 15, 2018 20:59:27 GMT Foggy said:

Back on topic, the constituent sitting of the Parliament is due to take place on Wednesday. Forcadell has said she does not wish to continue as Speaker.

Mariano Rajoy admits that the application of Article 155 will continue if any attempt is made to invest Carles Puigdemont as President 'telematically'.

What if they voted for a mascot instead, after all Hartlepool did and got away with it?

[Devil Wincarnate]

Jan 15, 2018 23:21:12 GMT @williamhone1780 said:

Jan 14, 2018 23:08:56 GMT Georg Ebner said:

The annexion of Albania by SouthSlavia was intended by both, Tito AND Hoxha, but rejected by Stalin.

Albania isn't a Slavic country why would they have done that?

Because Yugoslavia was little more than an expansionist Serbia dressed up. Worse before the war but barely better afterwards.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Jan 16, 2018 0:13:54 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

Jan 15, 2018 23:21:12 GMT @williamhone1780 said:

Albania isn't a Slavic country why would they have done that?

Because Yugoslavia was little more than an expansionist Serbia dressed up. Worse before the war but barely better afterwards.

That's ahistorical. The main drive for unifying Serbs, Croats, Slovenes etc in Yugoslavia was among the Croatian intellectual community, not the Serbs. Remember Serbia had an independent state prior to the First World War; Croatia didn't.

[Devil Wincarnate]

Jan 16, 2018 0:53:52 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

Jan 16, 2018 0:13:54 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

Because Yugoslavia was little more than an expansionist Serbia dressed up. Worse before the war but barely better afterwards.

That's ahistorical. The main drive for unifying Serbs, Croats, Slovenes etc in Yugoslavia was among the Croatian intellectual community, not the Serbs. Remember Serbia had an independent state prior to the First World War; Croatia didn't.

A fair point. Certainly I'd argue that the Slovenes and Macedonians were less positive about it, let alone the non-Slavs.

[yellowperil]

Jan 15, 2018 0:05:57 GMT mboy said:

Might have saved a lot of trouble in the end if they'd just gone ahead and done it...

Not so sure about saving a lot of trouble. Yugoslavia would have been even more unstable with all of Albania included and even Tito might have struggled -at very least the break up might have come earlier and been even  a lot more bloody.


Stalin wuz right.

[mboy]

It would have broken the Serb dominance of Yugoslavia though, and taken the Kosovo factor down or even out of the equation - as the Serbs wouldn't have spent 30 years trying to oppress and control a province that had instead been moved into the Albanian province. In a sense the EU and the USA show that a good democratic way to solve conflict between a small number of states is to increase the number and variety of states.

[Georg Ebner]

Jan 16, 2018 0:53:52 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

Jan 16, 2018 0:13:54 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

Because Yugoslavia was little more than an expansionist Serbia dressed up. Worse before the war but barely better afterwards.

That's ahistorical. The main drive for unifying Serbs, Croats, Slovenes etc in Yugoslavia was among the Croatian intellectual community, not the Serbs. Remember Serbia had an independent state prior to the First World War; Croatia didn't.

Illyrism was indeed mainly an ideal of croatian agitators.
But real existing SouthSlavia was a serbian hegemony, what was strongly Your (i.e. the Entente's) fault.
The TurningPoint for Croatians from proYugoslavism to proIndependence was as early as 1920.

[Georg Ebner]

Jan 16, 2018 12:07:49 GMT mboy said:

It would have broken the Serb dominance of Yugoslavia though, and taken the Kosovo factor down or even out of the equation - as the Serbs wouldn't have spent 30 years trying to oppress and control a province that had instead been moved into the Albanian province. In a sense the EU and the USA show that a good democratic way to solve conflict between a small number of states is to increase the number and variety of states.

Yes, Albania being part of Titostan or Kosovo being a full republic should have stopped Milosevic.
From the near, it appears as the main fault of ambitious men like Yeltsin and Milosevic, that SovietUnion and SouthSlavia fell apart, so very coincidental. From distance, it appears as rather inevitable, though.

[Foggy]

Jan 15, 2018 23:24:05 GMT @williamhone1780 said:

Jan 15, 2018 20:59:27 GMT Foggy said:

Back on topic, the constituent sitting of the Parliament is due to take place on Wednesday. Forcadell has said she does not wish to continue as Speaker.

Mariano Rajoy admits that the application of Article 155 will continue if any attempt is made to invest Carles Puigdemont as President 'telematically'.

What if they voted for a mascot instead, after all Hartlepool did and got away with it?

An actual monkey would be a better President than either of the last two (at least) holders of that office!

The ERC have proposed their own Roger Torrent, a deputy spokesperson for Junts pel Sí in the previous legislative period, as a possible new Speaker.

The Spanish government have said that they'll go back to the Constitutional Court if Puigdemont tries to send a delegate to vote on his behalf from Brussels.

[CatholicLeft]

Jan 16, 2018 12:07:49 GMT mboy said:

It would have broken the Serb dominance of Yugoslavia though, and taken the Kosovo factor down or even out of the equation - as the Serbs wouldn't have spent 30 years trying to oppress and control a province that had instead been moved into the Albanian province. In a sense the EU and the USA show that a good democratic way to solve conflict between a small number of states is to increase the number and variety of states.

Not really, as Kosovo has been the seat of the Serbian Orthodox Church since the Serbian Patriachy of Peç was established in 1346. For Serbians, Kosovo is the beating heart of Serbia, which is a very difficult problem to solve, not made easier by the appalling murder Oliver Ivanoviç earlier today.

[East Anglian Lefty]

Jan 16, 2018 0:53:52 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

Jan 16, 2018 0:13:54 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

Because Yugoslavia was little more than an expansionist Serbia dressed up. Worse before the war but barely better afterwards.

That's ahistorical. The main drive for unifying Serbs, Croats, Slovenes etc in Yugoslavia was among the Croatian intellectual community, not the Serbs. Remember Serbia had an independent state prior to the First World War; Croatia didn't.

Not really true. The Serbian intellectual community was equally in favour, it's just that the reasons differed.

Jan 16, 2018 12:07:49 GMT mboy said:

It would have broken the Serb dominance of Yugoslavia though, and taken the Kosovo factor down or even out of the equation - as the Serbs wouldn't have spent 30 years trying to oppress and control a province that had instead been moved into the Albanian province. In a sense the EU and the USA show that a good democratic way to solve conflict between a small number of states is to increase the number and variety of states.

This is an interesting interpretation of how nationalism works. I would note that in the 1990s the Serbs were markedly uninterested in areas in the Bosnian province...

In any case, it's not like Kosovo has ever been purely Albanian - the appeal of ethnic cleansing isn't really about moving the lines, it's about simplifying the lines so that they match up to how things 'should' be.