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Post by finsobruce on Jul 16, 2024 11:13:19 GMT
Are there any other grounds on which a recount may be sought?
Suppose, for instance, the winner is clear but the race for second is desperately close - just a vote or two in it.
No. Why would there be a recount for that? But there was a table on here yesterday showing how narrowly some candidates held their deposits. I think one of them was exactly on the line. Could a Returning Officer initiate or a rival agent demand a recount in those circumstances? It's pretty straightforward. Candidates/agents can request recounts, and the RO can refuse them if they think the request is 'unreasonable'.
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Post by johnloony on Jul 16, 2024 11:22:50 GMT
Are there any other grounds on which a recount may be sought? Suppose, for instance, the winner is clear but the race for second is desperately close - just a vote or two in it.
No. Why would there be a recount for that? But there was a table on here yesterday showing how narrowly some candidates held their deposits. I think one of them was exactly on the line. Could a Returning Officer initiate or a rival agent demand a recount in those circumstances? There was a recount to check who was in 2nd place in Bootle in May 1990 (Conservative 3,220 Lib Dem 3,179). Apart from doing it for cosmetic reasons, the logic is that if the winner is unseated by an election petition, then the seat might be awarded to the candidate in 2nd place. It is up to the agents or candidates to ask for a recount in any circumstances they want to (is the election close? Is it close between 2nd & 3rd place? Is it close to losing a deposit? Is there a big discrepancy between the verified total and the counted total?); It is up to the Returning Officer to make a decision about whether to have a recount. The R.O. can decide to do a recount on his/her own intitiative, without even needing to be requested by the candidates. e.g. the first recount in Croydon Central in 2005 was ordered by the R.O. even before telling the candidates the numbers, partly because the margin was less than 100 and partly because there was a discrepancy of about 20. If a candidate is a few votes below holding their deposit, they might ask for a recount. If a candidate is 1 or 2 votes above holding their deposit, it wouldn’t be in the R.O.’s interests to do a recount just to save £500 for the taxpayer, because the cost of a recount would be more than £500 anyway. |
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pl
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Post by pl on Jul 16, 2024 11:34:58 GMT
No. Why would there be a recount for that? But there was a table on here yesterday showing how narrowly some candidates held their deposits. I think one of them was exactly on the line. Could a Returning Officer initiate or a rival agent demand a recount in those circumstances? It's pretty straightforward. Candidates/agents can request recounts, and the RO can refuse them if they think the request is 'unreasonable'.
Indeed, the key word is "reasonable". I've called them before because the provisional result was obviously wrong (the tallies of two candidates were transposed) and at a different count for a close result (12 votes). Towards the end of the night there was another close result of 8 votes that I didn't call a recount on as every full recount had returned the exact same result, which was impressive. I've also seen a request for a recount where the victorious top polling council candidate had about 1,000 more votes than his running mate who lost (he got multiple times his vote). It was refused. Anyone who had watched the split votes being counted would have noted the number of voters voting on seemingly ethnic lines. I've seen a request for a recount succeed where the split vote tallies were incorrectly applied to the bloc party line votes. Completely changed the winning candidates... |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Jul 16, 2024 11:36:15 GMT
Some Returning Officers will allow a recount for second place (ie very close between second and third), on the remote grounds that it could matter if the first placed candidate was disqualified under the 'votes thrown away' doctrine.
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cathyc
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Post by cathyc on Jul 16, 2024 11:52:57 GMT
Some Returning Officers will allow a recount for second place (ie very close between second and third), on the remote grounds that it could matter if the first placed candidate was disqualified under the 'votes thrown away' doctrine. I would have thought that the probability of a victorious candidate being disqualified and it it being handed to the runner-up is extremely remote unless there were only two candidates. If it was so close between 2nd and 3rd that it took a recount to separate them then it's even more unlikely. But then this is election law so maybe it's true. |
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Post by uthacalthing on Jul 16, 2024 15:17:40 GMT
Has a candidate ever demanded a recount to attempt to cost an opponent a deposit?
That would be a level of spite and pettiness that I would applaud
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Jul 16, 2024 15:40:53 GMT
Has a candidate ever demanded a recount to attempt to cost an opponent a deposit? That would be a level of spite and pettiness that I would applaud My understanding is you can only request a recount if you are just shy of winning or if you are just shy of keeping your deposit. I admire your level of spite though  |
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ilerda
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Post by ilerda on Jul 16, 2024 15:45:26 GMT
Have started looking through where the Conservatives lost their deposit this time. A potentially non-exhaustive list: Glasgow NE Glasgow E Glasgow S Glasgow SW Glasgow W Glasgow N West Dunbartonshire Cumbernauld & Kirkintilloch Coatbridge & Bellshill Airdrie & Shotts Na h-Eileanan an-iar NE Fife Dundee Central Orkney & Shetland Bootle Knowsley Liverpool Walton Liverpool Riverside Liverpool West Derby Liverpool Wavertree Bristol Central Islington North Hackney South & Shoreditch (potentially not if spoilt ballots are included in the calculation) Bethnal Green & Stepney Also all the seats they stood in in Northern Ireland, but it seems redundant to count those. Surprisingly none of the Manchester seats, the closest was Withington at 5.5%, followed by Rusholme at 5.8% (but a lot fewer votes, given it had the lowest turnout nationally) Had they lost it in Withington that would have been quite impressive given it was a Tory seat right up to 1987. Would Bristol Central have been notionally Tory before 1997, as West was? 1987!? That’s almost 40 years ago and a hell of a lot of demographic change has happened in that time. In fact I’d be surprised if there are any of those 1987 Tory voters left alive, let alone still living in the constituency. |
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batman
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Post by batman on Jul 16, 2024 15:56:35 GMT
Some Returning Officers will allow a recount for second place (ie very close between second and third), on the remote grounds that it could matter if the first placed candidate was disqualified under the 'votes thrown away' doctrine. there was a recount in Mortlake in 1998, although it was (fairly) clear which 3 candidates had won. The Lib Dems requested it because I was a few votes ahead of their second not-elected candidate. In the end I had the runner-up spot, 25 votes behind my party colleague Brian Matthews. Brian was indeed not disqualified & served his 4-year term, as did the other candidates elected, who were Eleanor Stanier (LD - she has sadly passed away recently) & Barry Langford (Lab) who is my cousin. |
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john07
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Post by john07 on Jul 16, 2024 16:03:18 GMT
Some Returning Officers will allow a recount for second place (ie very close between second and third), on the remote grounds that it could matter if the first placed candidate was disqualified under the 'votes thrown away' doctrine. I would have thought that the probability of a victorious candidate being disqualified and it it being handed to the runner-up is extremely remote unless there were only two candidates. If it was so close between 2nd and 3rd that it took a recount to separate them then it's even more unlikely. But then this is election law so maybe it's true. The only example I can think of is when Tony Benn stood in a by-election in Bristol South East after inheriting his father’s peerage in 1961. He polled 70% of the vote but was disqualified and his Conservative opponent declared elected. There may have been others in Northern Ireland? |
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Post by swindonlad on Jul 16, 2024 16:07:37 GMT
Has a candidate ever demanded a recount to attempt to cost an opponent a deposit? That would be a level of spite and pettiness that I would applaud My understanding is you can only request a recount if you are just shy of winning or if you are just shy of keeping your deposit. I admire your level of spite though You could, in theory, ask for it, as you can request a recount for any reason. I suspect the RO would use their prerogative to politely decline it. BTW, there are stories of people asking for a recount in a close contest whilst they are ahead. |
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pl
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Post by pl on Jul 16, 2024 16:31:42 GMT
Has a candidate ever demanded a recount to attempt to cost an opponent a deposit? That would be a level of spite and pettiness that I would applaud I remember a story from 1997 where a soon to be returned (unexpected) Labour MP wanted to call a recount against himself, and had to be talked out of it. I want it to be true, but I am somewhat sceptical! Wonder how many reluctant new MPs we have this time. Even if it was that they were expecting to lose this time and get a winnable seat at a more convenient life moment in 2029... |
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cathyc
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Post by cathyc on Jul 16, 2024 16:36:23 GMT
I would have thought that the probability of a victorious candidate being disqualified and it it being handed to the runner-up is extremely remote unless there were only two candidates. If it was so close between 2nd and 3rd that it took a recount to separate them then it's even more unlikely. But then this is election law so maybe it's true. The only example I can think of is when Tony Benn stood in a by-election in Bristol South East after inheriting his father’s peerage in 1961. He polled 70% of the vote but was disqualified and his Conservative opponent declared elected. There may have been others in Northern Ireland? The Conservative was his only opponent in the by-election. |
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swanarcadian
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Post by swanarcadian on Jul 16, 2024 16:41:08 GMT
Surprisingly none of the Manchester seats, the closest was Withington at 5.5%, followed by Rusholme at 5.8% (but a lot fewer votes, given it had the lowest turnout nationally) Had they lost it in Withington that would have been quite impressive given it was a Tory seat right up to 1987. Would Bristol Central have been notionally Tory before 1997, as West was? 1987!? That’s almost 40 years ago and a hell of a lot of demographic change has happened in that time. In fact I’d be surprised if there are any of those 1987 Tory voters left alive, let alone still living in the constituency. Fred Silvester himself is still with us apparently. He’s 91 this year. |
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Post by No Offence Alan on Jul 16, 2024 17:29:43 GMT
I would have thought that the probability of a victorious candidate being disqualified and it it being handed to the runner-up is extremely remote unless there were only two candidates. If it was so close between 2nd and 3rd that it took a recount to separate them then it's even more unlikely. But then this is election law so maybe it's true. The only example I can think of is when Tony Benn stood in a by-election in Bristol South East after inheriting his father’s peerage in 1961. He polled 70% of the vote but was disqualified and his Conservative opponent declared elected. There may have been others in Northern Ireland? In one of my occasional off-the-wall political fantasies, I would propose the proxy vote for an MP too sick to perform their parliamentary duties should go to the runner-up when they were last elected. Otherwise the sacred link between MP and constituency is broken. |
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Post by uthacalthing on Jul 16, 2024 17:35:54 GMT
Wholly wrong headed and subject to obvious abuse
And MP who is unwell/dead, his/her eldest child should deputise
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Jul 19, 2024 8:45:39 GMT
I would have thought that the probability of a victorious candidate being disqualified and it it being handed to the runner-up is extremely remote unless there were only two candidates. If it was so close between 2nd and 3rd that it took a recount to separate them then it's even more unlikely. But then this is election law so maybe it's true. The only example I can think of is when Tony Benn stood in a by-election in Bristol South East after inheriting his father’s peerage in 1961. He polled 70% of the vote but was disqualified and his Conservative opponent declared elected. There may have been others in Northern Ireland? There was the 1955 Mid-Ulster by-election. |
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Jul 19, 2024 9:12:51 GMT
Wholly wrong headed and subject to obvious abuse And MP who is unwell/dead, his/her eldest child should deputise And for those who don't have sprogs? |
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cathyc
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Post by cathyc on Jul 19, 2024 9:21:46 GMT
The only example I can think of is when Tony Benn stood in a by-election in Bristol South East after inheriting his father’s peerage in 1961. He polled 70% of the vote but was disqualified and his Conservative opponent declared elected. There may have been others in Northern Ireland? There was the 1955 Mid-Ulster by-election. Again it was a two-person contest. |
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Post by michaelarden on Jul 20, 2024 13:29:40 GMT
Have we got a full list of lost deposits by party yet?
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