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Post by Chris Cassidy on Feb 11, 2014 23:05:37 GMT
The BNP isn't running any sort of decent campaign. Most of the activity is spent harassing locals in the shopping centre and driving around in the 'Truth Truck' with an imprint for the London GLA haha. Where they have had people delivering, they've had to put 5 or 6 leaflets inside a BNP newspaper.
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Post by Devonian on Feb 11, 2014 23:33:07 GMT
Its a fair bet Farage and his party wouldn't be making these noises if they thought they were going to get a good result this week, never mind win. I do apologise that the local Labour party is well organised and not just rolling over for them I don't think you can assume that the reason why Farage is raising these points is a a way of making excuses. If he was concerned about the issues he raised I would expect him to make these points even if he expected to do well. To demonstrate the point that people do raise these points for reasons other than making excuses for loosing here is a clip of George Galloway on the podium after his win in Bethnal Green. In the clip he attacks first the Labour Party and then later the returning officer (who had just announced his win) over the issue of postal vote irregularities I remember reading Oona King's account of this occasion and she expressed surprise that Galloway adopted this attitude after winning. I'm not sure why she thought this. If someone wins an election in which they believe there has been cheating against them are they supposed to be grateful if there wasn't enough cheating to prevent them from winning?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 0:29:24 GMT
George Galloway now presents the Sputnik programme on Russia TV where he argues that the Ukrainian uprising is completely run by Fascists. He has now left Syrian TV after his stint on Iranian TV. He is not the best person to use as an example of rational argument and thought. In 2005, he had expected to lose and had written a speech for it; having won, he was so in love with his conspiracy theory speech, he decided to give it anyway. Honestly Devonian, you are barking up the wrong tree here.
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Post by Devonian on Feb 12, 2014 0:58:09 GMT
George Galloway now presents the Sputnik programme on Russia TV where he argues that the Ukrainian uprising is completely run by Fascists. He has now left Syrian TV after his stint on Iranian TV. He is not the best person to use as an example of rational argument and thought. What you have given here is an example of ad hominem, which is a fallacy i.e. not an example of rational argument and thought. A couple of points to make. Firstly are you claiming that to claim there is electoral fraud going on in Tower Hamlets is somehow a 'conspiracy theory'? Really? Secondly are you really saying that you cannot imaging that Galloway raising the issue if he thought that he would win anyway? Why wouldn't he raise it, the problems with the postal voting system in this country have been notorious for years.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
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Post by Sibboleth on Feb 12, 2014 0:59:52 GMT
Hishte!
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carlton43
Non-Aligned
Posts: 48,400
Member is Online
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Post by carlton43 on Feb 12, 2014 1:19:59 GMT
We obviously mean business as I have had 'the email call to the hustings' to assist and support. I imagine I must be one of the members at greatest remove from the constituency. I am unable to go....this time. No need to feel special. I got the e-mail as well. I am old enough and cynical enough not to feel special about nearly anything Richard. I merely sought to point out 'wide net' if they are trying to raise troops from The Glens! In truth it will of course have been a mass mail drop to the total membership....and ex-membership it seems?
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Post by Devonian on Feb 12, 2014 7:20:25 GMT
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Post by Devonian on Feb 12, 2014 7:24:11 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 9:14:15 GMT
Devonian, pointing out the activity of George Galloway is not fallacious or irrational, giving an account of his behaviour and practise is evidential and not simply ad hominem. Sometimes it is important to have a closer look at those you use in support of your case. I would argue that his wild claims on different matters undermine his believability as a witness. I repeat, for Nigel Farage to claim that Labour Party workers are following the postman as he delivers 17,000 postal vote forms to pressurise the "old dears" is nonsensical, as well as being cheap politics. As it happens, I dislike the wide use of postal voting as people vote before the campaign has actually got going and that is undermining of democratic debate from my point of view. However, the rules are the rules and just because I dislike them doesn't mean I should make wild accusations to make my case.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Feb 12, 2014 12:38:28 GMT
UKIPWatch are really terrible at fact-checking, aren't they? Prior to the by-election, the only remotely competitive local result UKIP had ever had in Eastleigh was a very distant second place in 2012 in Bishopstoke East. In pretty much every other ward (and in that ward in every other year) they got Wythenshawe-style results at best. So claims that Eastleigh had a better UKIP organisation do not stand up to scrutiny. As for Sale, the article suggests that they wouldn't have much support there anyway, so that lack of organisation surely shouldn't be setting them back? I don't think that's a terribly accurate characterisation of Sale as a whole, but even if it was it's not like UKIP suffered from the affluence of bits of Eastleigh. All these internal contradictions appear to show an unwillingness to face up to the fundamental truth, that UKIP just aren't doing as well in Wythenshawe as they think they ought to be. A bad workman blames his tools. And then he starts alleging fraud, because he's too much in denial to realise that not everybody is interested in what he's selling them.
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Post by mrhell on Feb 12, 2014 12:54:16 GMT
What did they think UKIP would use the photograph for?
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
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Post by Richard Allen on Feb 12, 2014 13:33:34 GMT
UKIPWatch are really terrible at fact-checking, aren't they? Prior to the by-election, the only remotely competitive local result UKIP had ever had in Eastleigh was a very distant second place in 2012 in Bishopstoke East. In pretty much every other ward (and in that ward in every other year) they got Wythenshawe-style results at best. So claims that Eastleigh had a better UKIP organisation do not stand up to scrutiny. Actually it is entirely true that UKIP had a much better organisation in Eastleigh, or at very least a far greater number of active members, than in Wythenshawe. It just wasn't reflected in the local election results prior to last year.
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Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
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Post by Tony Otim on Feb 12, 2014 15:25:17 GMT
I'd hazard a guess at something like this for the result: Lab 57 UKIP 18 Con 13.5 LD 5.5 Grn 3 BNP 2 OMRLP 1
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Feb 12, 2014 15:35:02 GMT
You get 2 faults for adding up to 102%
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Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
Posts: 11,304
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Post by Tony Otim on Feb 12, 2014 15:40:06 GMT
My mind is going ...
Edited for mathematical accuracy
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Feb 12, 2014 15:51:28 GMT
I think I'd take the 2 off Labour and leave your other numbers as they were. I'd hope we can get above 20% but it will be around that figure give or take
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 16:58:46 GMT
This is from a official UKIP update
The generator, used to provide power in the party shop at the beginning of the campaign, was stolen by opponents. Groups of activists even ran into the Ukip campaign shop to steal bundles of our campaign literature.
I think this is the BNP but again a generalised smear.
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Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
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Post by Tony Otim on Feb 12, 2014 17:09:38 GMT
I think I'd take the 2 off Labour and leave your other numbers as they were. I'd hope we can get above 20% but it will be around that figure give or take I've got a feeling this may be a slightly disappointing result for UKIP. If the Tories had a halfway decent candidate I might even back them to take second.
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Post by Devonian on Feb 12, 2014 18:32:12 GMT
Devonian, pointing out the activity of George Galloway is not fallacious or irrational, giving an account of his behaviour and practise is evidential and not simply ad hominem. Sometimes it is important to have a closer look at those you use in support of your case. I would argue that his wild claims on different matters undermine his believability as a witness. But my argument isn't about Galloway's reliability as a witness. Its about his motivation for raising the point about voting irregularities. You claim that he was giving an excuse he had pre prepared and decided to use anyway even when he didn't need it. Isn't it much more plausible to suppose that he had become convinced (for whatever reason) that he was being cheated and responded in his usual manner. Having just won the election he had no need to pretend to in order to save face. I realise that if it had helped him save face he wouldn't be averse to pretending to feel aggrieved but having just won the election he had no such motivation in this case. I rather think he really was feeling aggrieved. That doesn't make him a reliable witness it just makes the point that there are other motives than making excuses for bring up concerns about voting iregularities.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 18:54:17 GMT
Fair enough Devonian - as it happens, RESPECT have a few issues to face up to with voting 'encouragement'. I think my general disgruntlement with GG might make me less likely to trust his motives but I don't resile from my opinion. I am a bit p'd off today as I was intending to be in Wythenshawe this afternoon but the weather wrecked it. If I get the chance, I will try to spend an hour or so down there tomorrow, I am off to see my mother in Reddish and might drop her at my sister's in Sale while I have a mooch around.
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