Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,565
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Post by Khunanup on May 28, 2018 12:49:42 GMT
So the usual suspects on here are blaming the EU, what a huge surprise.
What they should be blaming is the ridiculous, outdated concept of a head of state to which are proscribed virtually dictatorial powers (in the original Roman sense of the concept in that they are voted to have that power by their peers). You give one person the power to do almost anything they want in terms of who governs after a democratic election and you expect no one to ever excercise that power because of their own personal opinions? Chickens coming home to roost I'm afraid.
It is a disgrace what has happened in Italy but it is constitutional, legal and completely up to the president to do it if he wants to. The fact it is also extremely stupid compounds the error of giving anyone that power in the first place (which of course virtually every head of state around the world has the ability to do...).
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mazuz
Conservative
Posts: 155
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Post by mazuz on May 28, 2018 13:10:04 GMT
The people did not elect the centre-right coalition, who won only 37% of the vote, and 42% of the seats in Parliament. Anyway, in a representative democracy, any government which can command a majority in Parliament has electoral legitimacy. The issue is than Lega are defectors. They were elected as "center-right" and defected to join another party. ... no, they aren't. They are not 'joining' any other party. They are forming a coalition with another party. This is what parties do after elections. Perfectly normal behavior just about everywhere in Europe.
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Post by mrpastelito on May 28, 2018 13:21:21 GMT
Maddening. Is Italy still a democracy? But of course it is! One might even call it a people's democracy!
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on May 28, 2018 13:24:35 GMT
What's going on is the ordinary operation of the Italian constitution. Not a coup. It is the working of Italian democracy not subvention of it.
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cogload
Lib Dem
I jumped in the river and what did I see...
Posts: 8,252
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Post by cogload on May 28, 2018 13:36:01 GMT
👆
This. A man elected by Italian politicians to be president has announced that as per the workings of the Italian constitution he has no confidence in the proposed finance minister.
This is because tbe proposed League/5* movement did not campaign on a polucy of leaving the euro, if they want to do that be upfront and not try and push it in an underhand manner.
Anyone who thinks that Mattarella is not a democrat should really look at his background. What with being an ex Judge on the Italian Constitutional Court and who cradled his dying brother after the latter was murdered by the Mafia.
I look forward to fresh elections and seeing how the unholy trinity of 5*/NL/ Forza get on with their anti Euro ticket.
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Post by Andrew_S on May 28, 2018 13:37:31 GMT
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Post by swanarcadian on May 28, 2018 13:47:44 GMT
It might be necessary to add a month to the thread title.
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Post by No Offence Alan on May 28, 2018 13:51:55 GMT
Maddening. Is Italy still a democracy? But of course it is! One might even call it a people's democracy! No, it's a reminder to all those who flirt with Republicanism that Republics are not Democracies.
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mazuz
Conservative
Posts: 155
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Post by mazuz on May 28, 2018 14:02:12 GMT
Looking forward to an even bigger M5S-Lega victory. The downside is that the PD's mass immigration policy will remain in place for one more year. Probably something Mattarella likes too.
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mazuz
Conservative
Posts: 155
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Post by mazuz on May 28, 2018 14:12:03 GMT
Anyone who thinks that Mattarella is not a democrat should really look at his background. What with being an ex Judge on the Italian Constitutional Court and who cradled his dying brother after the latter was murdered by the Mafia. What does this have to do with being a genuine democrat?
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,369
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Post by Sibboleth on May 28, 2018 14:22:20 GMT
Since the establishment of the Republic Italy has always had a Deep State. It's just that it used to be run by people with a bit more tact and significantly more intelligence than the current bunch. This is not very sensible at all.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,369
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Post by Sibboleth on May 28, 2018 14:23:41 GMT
Maddening. Is Italy still a democracy? No more or less so than it has ever been. Berlusconi's last (can we say final now?) fall from power was a constitutional coup of dubious constitutionality, don't forget!
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,369
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Post by Sibboleth on May 28, 2018 14:24:56 GMT
Maddening. Is Italy still a democracy? Is any country in the eu still a democracy? This sort of behaviour has nothing to do with the EU except to the extent that 'obligations to European institutions/our European partners etc' has become a go-to cover when required.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2018 14:30:34 GMT
What's going on is the ordinary operation of the Italian constitution. Not a coup. It is the working of Italian democracy not subvention of it. Not everything’s black and white. To not only replace a populist government duly elected by the people but to replace it with a technocrat from the IMF called “Mr Scissors” is politically asinine.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,369
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Post by Sibboleth on May 28, 2018 14:35:34 GMT
My free advice to any member or associate of the Italian Deep State who happens to be reading this thread, as unlikely as that may be: let these idiots take over, let them fuck up (as they will), and then sweep in to tidy up. Jesus. How hard is this?
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 28, 2018 14:42:15 GMT
Looking forward to an even bigger M5S-Lega victory. The downside is that the PD's mass immigration policy will continue for one more year. Probably something Mattarella likes too. Yup. Two anti-establishment parties (not really an accurate description in Lega's case, but that's what the perception is) are elected but prevented from forming a government by the president invoking a little-used rule and then appointing an IMF official(!) to run the country. I suppose that Mattarella was thinking about the rather questionable means used to install the Monti government, but things have changed over the last seven years, and Italians, even those who don't waste any love on M5S or Lega, are going to see this as an establishment stitch-up and likely vote accordingly. It'll be interesting to see, for sure. I wonder if it may change the balance of power between Lega and M5S? If it had been me I'd have given M5S-Lega enough rope to hang themselves, a programme of cutting taxes and increasing spending while simultaneously doing your best to eliminate any lingering confidence in the bond markets ought to reap it's own rewards fairly quickly. Criticism of Mattarella needs to be tempered by the possibility that he feels that it is his duty to avoid exactly that meltdown for the sake of the country. I've no idea if Italians will see it that way though - clearly if you have a President with these powers to some extent constitutional conflict has to be anticipated, but it does seem extreme. EDIT: I see Sibboleth got in first and more pithily.
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Post by Antiochian on May 28, 2018 14:55:27 GMT
Looks like you won. The EU might well be rubbing their hands with glee.....but they really shouldn't be. Whether or not they had any involvement in this I couldn't say for sure, but they are going to get the blame one way or another and the people will have their revenge Its taken 40 years but this is the first EU-sponsored coup.... There is no other word for it. If the Brussels nomenklatura could do the same in Poland, Hungary (or the UK) they would do it today. The beast has shown its true colours. Aux armes, citoyens...
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Post by Antiochian on May 28, 2018 14:59:31 GMT
What's going on is the ordinary operation of the Italian constitution. Not a coup. It is the working of Italian democracy not subvention of it. If the Queen did that to a Corbyn government by saying she didn't like McDonnell's politics then would you be saying the same?
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on May 28, 2018 15:06:23 GMT
What's going on is the ordinary operation of the Italian constitution. Not a coup. It is the working of Italian democracy not subvention of it. If the Queen did that to a Corbyn government by saying she didn't like McDonnell's politics then would you be saying the same? You're not very familiar with where I am within the Labour Party, are you.
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Post by Antiochian on May 28, 2018 15:11:16 GMT
If the Queen did that to a Corbyn government by saying she didn't like McDonnell's politics then would you be saying the same? You're not very familiar with where I am within the Labour Party, are you. Your coup should be within the party then... are you suggesting that coups on the street are acceptable because you can't achieve one in-house?
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