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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on May 28, 2018 15:16:10 GMT
You're not very familiar with where I am within the Labour Party, are you. Your coup should be within the party then... are you suggesting that coups on the street are acceptable because you can't achieve one in-house? The UK constitution isn't that of Italy. HM the Queen isn't the President of Italy. The President of Italy is given certain constitutional powers which the monarch does not in this country possess. That is a complete and perfect answer to your question.
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Post by Antiochian on May 28, 2018 15:25:44 GMT
It's a coup .. pure and simple.. the two parties have a majority and chose their ministers and that was not acceptable to the President. As Salvini said today Mattarella is not rejecting a person, he is rejecting an idea.
Even more damning is the majority AGAINST the new junta. It's at least 379 out of 630 seats with M5S and Lega as well as Fratelli against. Berlusconi thinks he might play some game here but Giorgio Mulè, spokesman for the parliamentary groups of Forza Italia has also spoken saying they won't support Cottarelli, so that's (in theory) another 104. A vote of no confidence in Cottarelli should be had ASAP to show how little support this EU/IMF quisling has.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 28, 2018 16:07:32 GMT
There's no point ascribing to a coup that which can be explained by rank stupidity, tactlessness and probably personal feuds. It should be remembered that Savona was a minister in Ciampi's government, a cabinet that featured a number of ex-DC politicians with whom Mattarella had feuded.
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Post by Antiochian on May 28, 2018 17:18:10 GMT
There's no point ascribing to a coup that which can be explained by rank stupidity, tactlessness and probably personal feuds. It should be remembered that Savona was a minister in Ciampi's government, a cabinet that featured a number of ex-DC politicians with whom Mattarella had feuded. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.. it's a coup.. In Argentina we would call this un golpe institucional... and the Argentines are more Italian than they are Spanish.. not all golpes are militar.
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
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Post by Sibboleth on May 28, 2018 17:32:16 GMT
If one were to describe in such terms then it would certainly not be the first one in the history of the Italian Republic. Or even in the history of the Second Republic. Or even within the past decade.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2018 17:36:48 GMT
If one were to describe in such terms then it would certainly not be the first one in the history of the Italian Republic. Or even in the history of the Second Republic. Or even within the past decade. Sure, but that doesn't make it any less problematic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2018 18:12:23 GMT
To be fair to Antiochian if this was happening in Ethiopia or Kenya or Tanzania it probably would be being described as a “presidential coup” and the EU would probably be decrying it as an outrageous violation of the principles of democracy.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on May 28, 2018 18:24:36 GMT
To be fair to Antiochian if this was happening in Ethiopia or Kenya or Tanzania it probably would be being described as a “presidential coup” and the EU would probably be decrying it as an outrageous violation of the principles of democracy. You might want to read the twitter feed of Joseph Cotterill, the FT's man in South Africa. He has a long thread reporting on UK politics in the same way as it might be reported if the UK were an African country or emerging democracy. Start with:
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Post by Antiochian on May 28, 2018 18:35:38 GMT
To be fair to Antiochian if this was happening in Ethiopia or Kenya or Tanzania it probably would be being described as a “presidential coup” and the EU would probably be decrying it as an outrageous violation of the principles of democracy. Or what might happen if, for the sake of argument, the president of Slovakia or Croatia denied government to a neo-liberal pro-EU PM with a parliamentary majority.. I repeat again the Brussels crowd would dearly like to do the same in Poland, Hungary and the UK. I would like a forum participant to stand forth and declare hand on heart that Mattarella did not consult with any of the EU hierarchy, Christine Lagarde or Mario Draghi before taking his actions.. or all of the above..
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Post by Antiochian on May 28, 2018 18:39:29 GMT
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andrea
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Post by andrea on May 28, 2018 18:41:53 GMT
New poll by SWG for La7
5 Stars 29.5% Lega 27.5% PD 19.4% Forza Italia 8.0% Brothers of Italy 3.8% Free and Equals 2.7%
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Post by coolhandluke on May 28, 2018 19:56:04 GMT
New poll by SWG for La7 5 Stars 29.5% Lega 27.5% PD 19.4% Forza Italia 8.0% Brothers of Italy 3.8% Free and Equals 2.7% Andrea, is that the highest ever vote for the Lega in an opinion poll and also the narrowest gap yet between 5 Stars and Lega? Be interested to hear how you see this playing out with the likelihood of new elections?
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Post by Arthur Figgis on May 28, 2018 20:49:52 GMT
New poll by SWG for La7 5 Stars 29.5% Lega 27.5% PD 19.4% Forza Italia 8.0% Brothers of Italy 3.8% Free and Equals 2.7% Ugh.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 28, 2018 21:25:37 GMT
So Centre Left bloc static, with Lega picking up a bit from M5S and more from Forza - is that right?
Seems to leave the same basic electoral arithmetic but changes the balance in favour of Lega.
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myth11
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Post by myth11 on May 28, 2018 21:53:28 GMT
So Centre Left bloc static, with Lega picking up a bit from M5S and more from Forza - is that right? Seems to leave the same basic electoral arithmetic but changes the balance in favour of Lega. overall M5S plus lega would be 7% up on last election if that poll mirrors the end result.
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Georg Ebner
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Post by Georg Ebner on May 28, 2018 22:18:44 GMT
Austrian president Van der Bellen threatened to pull the same trick, but ultimately respected the outcome of the election and accepted the formation of an ÖVP-FPÖ government. v.d.Bellen would - reaffirmed by Brussels (whose pressure in 2000 on president Klestil was enormous) - not have sworn in a government intending to leave Euro/EU. Probably - at least on demands of Merkel&Macron - also not a PM Strache immediately, but - as his CampaignManager admitted - v.d.Bellen would have finally had to resignate against a resolute FPÖVP.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2018 23:02:08 GMT
Looks like you won. The EU might well be rubbing their hands with glee.....but they really shouldn't be. Whether or not they had any involvement in this I couldn't say for sure, but they are going to get the blame one way or another and the people will have their revenge Its taken 40 years but this is the first EU-sponsored coup.... There is no other word for it. If the Brussels nomenklatura could do the same in Poland, Hungary (or the UK) they would do it today. The beast has shown its true colours. Aux armes, citoyens... I have to say, I am always game for a conspiracy theory when it comes to the EU but I am not totally sure that they have had a hand in this beyond perhaps suggesting to the president that he reject a minister, but if they did it was probably after he asked them.....which puts into play a scenario that the EU would be quite pleased with in the circumstances. Again, I don't think it matters whether the EU aree involved, and I suspect they are on the side lines, they are going to get the blame anyway.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 29, 2018 4:55:40 GMT
I half expect to wake up one morning and find that Zucchero is the new prime minister. This is a farce.
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andrea
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Post by andrea on May 29, 2018 7:03:40 GMT
New poll by SWG for La7 5 Stars 29.5% Lega 27.5% PD 19.4% Forza Italia 8.0% Brothers of Italy 3.8% Free and Equals 2.7% Andrea, is that the highest ever vote for the Lega in an opinion poll and also the narrowest gap yet between 5 Stars and Lega? Be interested to hear how you see this playing out with the likelihood of new elections? I haven't looked at historical opinion polling data but almost 30 must be indeed a record. Yes, I think new elections are likely at this point unless Silvio changes his mind after seeing polls. It may be tied to if Lega stay allied with FI or if they abandon them. Given a recent ruling, Berlusconi can be a candidate at next GE. Cottarelli says he would be PM only until the budget is passed (December). So they would vote on early 2019 anyway.
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Post by carlton43 on May 29, 2018 7:27:45 GMT
The death of the centre left/left/communists and the Christian parties is all very positive.
Lega without the Nord and the anti-southern rhetoric is starting to be a major player and that is very promising for Italy.
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