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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 28, 2018 10:27:31 GMT
So, has Mattarella just managed to effect The Historic Uncompromise?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2018 10:29:21 GMT
It’s nothing to do with that, it’s a stitch up to deny the will of the electorate because the ruling elite in Italy, which has misruled that country since 1948, doesn’t support Lega or M5S. That’s why he’s done what he has and that’s why he will rue the day. Which party ran on a manifesto of leaving the euro? I thought they both backed away from this when setting out their plans for the country so to try and leave the Euro on this basis seems wrong. I hope they go back to the polls and include it this time so there is no doubt as to whether this is what the public want. Of course make them vote again. How insulting, how anti democratic, how very European.
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Post by carlton43 on May 28, 2018 10:36:32 GMT
Leaving the EU or even just a return to the lire would be the making of Italy. It has stalled ever since it joined seeing industry after industry falter and fail. Then with the euro the rot really set in and it has been downhill all the time from that moment. Italy needs an economy with a depreciating currency. Hard currencies do it in. I'd argue Italy's troubles started long before the euro. If they leave the Euro they will have nothing to service their debts and so the new currency will almost immediately default. The damage this would do to the Italian economy would take a long time to recover so I disagree. They shouldn't have gone into the Euro is an argument but now they are in the route out will be very painful, and not just for Italy. It did quite well with a weak currency. It would do so again. It would not default but depreciate and that would make imports expensive and let home industry recover and prosper. It is the only tactic to work. Italy had strength in huge number of small businesses and needs them back. For that to succeed it needs a weak currency and elements of protectionism especially from multi-nationals and chains. it needs to reverse economic modernism. So does Britain. Smaller units. Lots of them. Plenty of restrictions on the large and the foreign. Globalism only benefits the few and reduces the rest to serfdom gradually.
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Post by beesknee5 on May 28, 2018 10:41:38 GMT
I'd argue Italy's troubles started long before the euro. If they leave the Euro they will have nothing to service their debts and so the new currency will almost immediately default. The damage this would do to the Italian economy would take a long time to recover so I disagree. They shouldn't have gone into the Euro is an argument but now they are in the route out will be very painful, and not just for Italy. It did quite well with a weak currency. It would do so again. It would not default but depreciate and that would make imports expensive and let home industry recover and prosper. It is the only tactic to work. Italy had strength in huge number of small businesses and needs them back. For that to succeed it needs a weak currency and elements of protectionism especially from multi-nationals and chains. it needs to reverse economic modernism. So does Britain. Smaller units. Lots of them. Plenty of restrictions on the large and the foreign. Globalism only benefits the few and reduces the rest to serfdom gradually. The level of Italian debt and the lack of strength of a new lire currency means it doesn't stand a chance of getting off the ground. They'd be asking for IMF bailouts within days.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2018 10:45:20 GMT
The president has tasked former IMF director Carlo Cottarelli with forming a new interim government.
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Post by mrpastelito on May 28, 2018 11:15:22 GMT
[...] the ruling elite in Italy, which has misruled that country since 1948 1861 FTFY.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 28, 2018 11:22:38 GMT
I'd argue Italy's troubles started long before the euro. If they leave the Euro they will have nothing to service their debts and so the new currency will almost immediately default. The damage this would do to the Italian economy would take a long time to recover so I disagree. They shouldn't have gone into the Euro is an argument but now they are in the route out will be very painful, and not just for Italy. It did quite well with a weak currency. It would do so again. It would not default but depreciate and that would make imports expensive and let home industry recover and prosper. It is the only tactic to work. Italy had strength in huge number of small businesses and needs them back. For that to succeed it needs a weak currency and elements of protectionism especially from multi-nationals and chains. it needs to reverse economic modernism. So does Britain. Smaller units. Lots of them. Plenty of restrictions on the large and the foreign. Globalism only benefits the few and reduces the rest to serfdom gradually. I agree. Especially in a society like Italy, where small craftsmen dominated. As you pointed out a while back, Italy's decline in shoemaking and textiles cannot entirely be laid at the feet of its own nonsense politics. I would argue that the Euro has done to Italy what Savoy and friends did to the Two Sicilies.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 28, 2018 11:23:56 GMT
[...] the ruling elite in Italy, which has misruled that country since 1948 1861 476 FTFY. Fixed it for both of you!
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Post by mrpastelito on May 28, 2018 11:29:16 GMT
Fixed it for both of you! Bit harsh. I'd offer 535.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on May 28, 2018 11:29:50 GMT
Cottarelli confirmed as the new prime minister-designate.
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mazuz
Conservative
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Post by mazuz on May 28, 2018 11:38:12 GMT
Maddening. Is Italy still a democracy?
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Post by beastofbedfordshire on May 28, 2018 11:42:19 GMT
Maddening. Is Italy still a democracy? Is any country in the eu still a democracy?
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mazuz
Conservative
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Post by mazuz on May 28, 2018 11:44:37 GMT
Maddening. Is Italy still a democracy? Is any country in the eu still a democracy? Austrian president Van der Bellen threatened to pull the same trick, but ultimately respected the outcome of the election and accepted the formation of an ÖVP-FPÖ government.
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Post by Andrew_S on May 28, 2018 11:50:44 GMT
The president has tasked former IMF director Carlo Cottarelli with forming a new interim government. Is he a Monti-like technocrat?
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on May 28, 2018 11:55:15 GMT
The president has tasked former IMF director Carlo Cottarelli with forming a new interim government. Is he a Monti-like technocrat? Yes, but with much less notoriety and legitimacy. Hopefully, new elections happen soon and they can put that crisis behind them.
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Post by Andrew_S on May 28, 2018 12:02:24 GMT
Just seen this tweet from writer Ben Judah:
"Personally would have chosen someone economically heterodox and not an IMF official, to head a caretaker government after shooting down a populist government..."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2018 12:19:16 GMT
Maddening. Is Italy still a democracy? No. Not in any meaningful sense of the word if a President unelected by the people can fire the government elected by the people if he doesn’t like their choice of cabinet members.
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on May 28, 2018 12:28:46 GMT
Maddening. Is Italy still a democracy? No. Not in any meaningful sense of the word if a President unelected by the people can fire the government elected by the people if he doesn’t like their choice of cabinet members. The government elected by the people was a center-right coalition made of the Lega and FI. This government had as much legitimacy as if the Remain Conservative MPs decided to back Corbyn as PM in July 2017. Absolutely none.
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iain
Lib Dem
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Post by iain on May 28, 2018 12:37:32 GMT
No. Not in any meaningful sense of the word if a President unelected by the people can fire the government elected by the people if he doesn’t like their choice of cabinet members. The government elected by the people was a center-right coalition made of the Lega and FI. This government had as much legitimacy as if the Remain Conservative MPs decided to back Corbyn as PM in July 2017. Absolutely none. The people did not elect the centre-right coalition, who won only 37% of the vote, and 42% of the seats in Parliament. Anyway, in a representative democracy any government which can command a majority in Parliament has electoral legitimacy.
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on May 28, 2018 12:41:57 GMT
The government elected by the people was a center-right coalition made of the Lega and FI. This government had as much legitimacy as if the Remain Conservative MPs decided to back Corbyn as PM in July 2017. Absolutely none. The people did not elect the centre-right coalition, who won only 37% of the vote, and 42% of the seats in Parliament. Anyway, in a representative democracy, any government which can command a majority in Parliament has electoral legitimacy. The issue is than Lega are defectors. They were elected as "center-right" and defected to join another party. Your own party argues defectors should resign and seek office under their new banner, as they have no legitimacy.
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