Elections in Ireland 1885-1918

[An Sionnach Flannbhuí]

A call to arms for help. I'm looking into the elections between 1885 (3rd Reform Act) and 1918 - inclusive, in Ireland.



I've looked into Prof B Walker's 1801-1922 book, and FWS Craig's adaption of that. Neither seem to be quite right so I've been looking through other sources.



There's the Constitutional Year Book and the Liberal Year Book.
 Other reference sources, such as Dod's, Debrett's Guide to the Commons or even Thom's Directory, seem to be online only intermittently. Some such as Whitaker's Almanack are not online at all.



Might anyone be able to recommend other digitised almanacks or sources for this period? If not, does anyone know of sources available in libraries etc around London? I'd like not to buy from ABEBOOKS if sources are online.

[Harry Hayfield]

Although I cannot give details, I have a book called "The Swing of the Pendulum" which lists the summary election results from 1832 - 1910 and therefore I would be able to tally the summary of Unionist and Liberal seats in Ireland where suitable. As I have mentioned in another thread, I have a book that details Wales since 1885 and am wondering whether we should collaborate with one of our Scottish members to create a book covering the island of Ireland, Scotland and Wales from 1885?

[Davıd Boothroyd]

I don't know what you think is wrong with Brian Walker's book - it does have every Parliamentary election result in Ireland in 1885-1918.

Another book that has them is "McCalmont's Parliamentary Poll Book: British Election Results 1832-1918", an edited reprint of a 1910 original book published in 1971. There are multiple copies on ABEBooks one of which is only 83p ($1).

The other option are the year books published by the political parties. Several editions of the Constitutional Year Book (published by the Conservatives) and the Liberal Year Book are online on archive.org, for instance the Constitutional Year Book for 1906 archive.org/details/constitutionaly05unkngoog which has all Parliamentary election results from 1885 until the end of the 1900-06 Parliament. There are also editions of Debrett's House of Commons and Judicial Bench which have election results.

[ColinJ]

As David says, Walker's book is fine although arguably data is less well presented than we find in Craig's volumes - perhaps that is what you are implying when you say that Walker's book "isn't quite right". I think the problem with it lies with the first part of the book presenting results for each general election, while the second part presents results by parliamentary constituency (i.e. closer to Craig's methodology).

To take an example: page 83 gives the result for Ennis constituency at the 1852 general election, including the number of electors as well as full candidate names. Meanwhile, on page 278 the same voting figures can be found in the Ennis constituency section - but without the electorate figure - and candidate names are simplified by providing initials for forenames. This does seem like unnecessary duplication, and the need to flick backwards and forwards to obtain the full picture, but perhaps we should all be grateful that we have this book available to complement Craig. If you haven't got a personal copy, one is currently available on ebay at £21.09 + p&p.

[An Sionnach Flannbhuí]

Feb 16, 2017 22:45:15 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

I don't know what you think is wrong with Brian Walker's book - it does have every Parliamentary election result in Ireland in 1885-1918.

Another book that has them is "McCalmont's Parliamentary Poll Book: British Election Results 1832-1918", an edited reprint of a 1910 original book published in 1971. There are multiple copies on ABEBooks one of which is only 83p ($1).

The other option are the year books published by the political parties. Several editions of the Constitutional Year Book (published by the Conservatives) and the Liberal Year Book are online on archive.org, for instance the Constitutional Year Book for 1906 archive.org/details/constitutionaly05unkngoog which has all Parliamentary election results from 1885 until the end of the 1900-06 Parliament. There are also editions of Debrett's House of Commons and Judicial Bench which have election results.

I have Walker, and McCalmont, and the others you refer to. The point is, on reviewing Walker, it is not correct. Even FWS Craig, in providing a general summary in his light green book, disagrees with Walker (and I do not have my papers to hand, so cannot show you in which constituencies the disagreement lies).

But Walker and Craig are certainly at odds in certain constituencies, and they are both at odds with other sources. Which is why I ask for other sources (and I have gone through the archive.org and taken the Debrett's, Constitutional, and Liberal Year Books you suggest long before now!)

[Davıd Boothroyd]

I'm not sure what you mean by the "light green book". Several Craig books at various points had green covers.

The most difficult problem in Irish election results in this period is correct identification of which faction the Nationalist candidates belonged to. Walker is by far the best source on that.

If you have questions about figures, in relation to electorate or votes, I can check them against the 'official' numbers in the Return of Election Expenses.

[An Sionnach Flannbhuí]

Feb 18, 2017 17:56:31 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

I'm not sure what you mean by the "light green book". Several Craig books at various points had green covers.

The most difficult problem in Irish election results in this period is correct identification of which faction the Nationalist candidates belonged to. Walker is by far the best source on that.

If you have questions about figures, in relation to electorate or votes, I can check them against the 'official' numbers in the Return of Election Expenses.

The "light green book" is Craig's 1885-1918 where he gives every result in GB but only a summary of each election in Ireland which differs from Walker subtly. Walker gives no summary so it is a case of working out differences for oneself. They don't agree.

I make this the difference between Walker and Craig:

1885 election		WALKER	WALKER	CRAIG	CRAIG	NOTES
1885 Belfast E	Edward SW de Cobain	Ind C	3033*	C	3033*
1885 Belfast N	Alexander Bowman	Ind	1330	L	1330
1885 Belfast S	William Johnston	Ind C	3610*	C	3610*
1885 Belfast S	Robert Seeds	Ind C	871	C	871
1885 Antrim N	John Pinkerton	Ind	1915	N	1915
1885 Galway E	Hon Richard A Nugent	L	352	C	352
1885 King's Tullamore	Walter H Walsh	L	323	Other	323	Loyalist
1885 Longford S	James Wilson	L	321	Other	321	All other sources indicate L
1885 Louth N	Philip Callan	Ind N	1451	N	1451
1885 Waterford E	Capt WG de la Poer	Loy	314	C	314
1885 Westmeath N	John Wilson	L	255	Other	255	Loyalist

1886 election		WALKER	WALKER	CRAIG	CRAIG	NOTES
1886 Antrim Mid	JH McKelvey	L	933	N	933

1892 election		WALKER	WALKER	CRAIG	CRAIG	NOTES
1892 Londonderry S	Rt Hon Samuel Walker	L	4053	N	4053
1892 Louth N	Philip Callan	Ind N	1569	N	1569	Parnellite
1892 Tyrone N	Rev James B Dougherty	L	2996	N	2996
1892 Tyrone S	Thomas A DIckson	L	3096	N	3096
1892 Wicklow W	Col Robert JP Saunders	LU	748	LU	784	Discrepancy in Walker

1895 election		WALKER	WALKER	CRAIG	CRAIG	NOTES
1895 Fermanagh N	Dr George R Leeper	Ind L	2406	L	2406
1895 Monaghan N	Hon Peter C Westenra	C	2094	N	2094
1895 Queen's Ossory	William A McDonald	Ind N	383	N	383	Parnellite
1895 Tyrone S	Thomas Shillington	Ind N	3046	L	3046

1900 election		WALKER	WALKER	CRAIG	CRAIG	NOTES
1900 Louth S	Joseph Nolan	Ind N	1233*	N	1233*	Not a Healyite
1900 Tyrone S	Dr Edward C Thompson	Ind N	2409	N	2409	Not a Healyite

1906 election		WALKER	WALKER	CRAIG	CRAIG	NOTES
1906 Dublin Harbour	JL Mahon	LU	872	Other	872
1906 Newry	Patrick GH Carvill	Ind N	736	N	736
1906 Antrim Mid	Col John H Verschoyle	Russ U	2577	Other	2577	Independent Unionist
1906 Galway North	Col John P Nolan	Ind N	1064	N	1064
1906 Louth N	Timothy M Healy	Ind N	Unopp*	N	Unopp*

J 1910 election		WALKER	WALKER	CRAIG	CRAIG	NOTES
J 1910 Belfast W	Patrick J Magee	Ind N	75	N	75
J 1910 Cork	Sir Edward Fitzgerald bt	Ind N	2061	N	2061
J 1910 Kerry E	Eugene O'Sullivan	Ind N	2643*	N	2643*
J 1910 Kerry N	Thomas N Stack	Ind N	885	N	885
J 1910 Limerick E	Thomas WW Bennett	Ind N	2918	N	2918
J 1910 Mayo N	Bernard Egan	Ind N	1821	N	1821
J 1910 Monaghan S	John McKean	Ind N	2611*	N	2611*
J 1910 Tyrone Mid	George Murnaghan	Ind N	1244	N	1244
J 1910 Waterford W	E Arthur Ryan	Ind N	1309	N	1309
J 1910 Westmeath N	Laurence Ginnell	Ind N	1996*	N	1996*

D 1910 election		WALKER	WALKER	CRAIG	CRAIG	NOTES
D 1910 Kilkenny S	Nicholas J Murphy	Ind N	287	N	287
D 1910 King's Birr	Frederick W Ryan	Ind N	624	N	624
D 1910 Monaghan S	John McKean	Ind N	Unopp*	N	Unopp*
D 1910 Westmeath N	Laurence Ginnell	Ind N	Unopp*	N	Unopp*

[An Sionnach Flannbhuí]

I thought I would take up the challenge and use my (currently, not complete) work to ask a series of questions, that I hope show that there is a challenge and there are problems largely with classification, and both Walker and Craig’s analyses sometimes contradict the consensus view of the primary sources.

Was John Pinkerton (North Antrim, 1885) an Independent (Walker), Nationalist (Craig and most other sources) or a Liberal (Debrett’s 1886)?

Was Richard Anthony Nugent (East Galway, 1885) a Liberal (Walker) or a Conservative (Craig and most other sources)? Did he get 352 votes (most sources) or 353 (Debrett’s 1886)?

Was James Wilson (South Longford, 1885) a Liberal (Walker and all other sources) or an unidentified “Other” (Craig)?

Was Walter Hussey Walsh (Tullamore, 1885) a Liberal (Walker, Debrett’s 1886), an unidentified “Other” (Craig), Loyalist (McCalmont, Constitutional 1919), Conservative (Liberal 1908)

Was Philip Callan (North Louth, 1885) an Independent (Walker, McCalmont, Constitutional 1919), or an official Nationalist (Craig, Liberal 1908, Debrett’s 1886). When he stood again in 1892 was he an Independent (Walker, McCalmont, Constitutional 1919, Liberal 1908, Debrett’s 1896) or an official Nationalist (Craig)?

Was John Wilson (North Westmeath, 1885) a Liberal (Walker and Debrett’s Guide 1886), unidentified “Other” (Craig), Loyalist (Constitutional Year Book 1919 and McCalmont’s Poll Book), or a Conservative (Liberal Year Book 1908)?

Was James Owens Wylie (North Tyrone, 1886) a Liberal (Walker) or Nationalist (Craig, Constitutional 1919, Liberal 1908)?

How many votes did Edward Hamilton Woods (Con) get at North Dublin, 1892? 1,631 (McCalmont and Constitutional 1919) 1,638 (Liberal 1908, Walker and Craig) or 1,648 (Debrett’s 1896)?

Was Samuel Barrett-Hamilton (South Wexford, 1892) a Liberal Unionist (Walker) or a Conservative (McCalmont, Constitutional 1919, Liberal 1908, Debrett’s 1896)? Debrett’s has him receiving 354 votes but all other sources say 554.

Was George Reginald Leeper (North Fermanagh, 1895) an Independent Liberal (Walker), official Liberal (most sources) or an official Nationalist (Dod’s Companion 1896)

Was Peter Craven Westernra (North Monaghan, 1895) a Conservative (Walker and most sources) or a Nationalist (Craig)?

Was Daniel James Wilson (North Tyrone, 1900) a Liberal Unionist (Constitutional 1919) or a Conservative (Walker, Craig, Liberal 1908)?

Was JL Mahon (Dublin Harbour, 1906) a Liberal Unionist (Walker and most sources) or an unidentified “Other” (Craig)? Did he get 872 votes (most sources) or 866 (Constitutional 1919)?

Did William John Johnston (South Londonderry, December 1910) get 3,512 votes (McCalmont, Liberal 1916, Debrett’s 1918) or 3,513 (Walker, Craig, Constitutional 1919)?

Did John Pius Boland (North Kerry, December 1910) get 2,390 votes (Walker, Craig, Constitutional 1919, Liberal 1916) or 2,395 (McCalmont, Debrett’s 1918)?

Was Andrew Long Horner (South Tyrone, 1906 and both 1910) a Conservative or a Liberal Unionist? Should we even try to distinguish the two parties in 1910, as they appear to have merged into one another earlier in Ireland, even though some sources show him as a LU in 1910?

This list is not complete. But it should be clear that both Walker and Craig deviate from the consensus in at least a few seats, and disagree from one another in a few cases. I would appreciate being pointed at other sources that could help precisely because it would be good to build as many sources through almanacks as possible, before being made to search in Dublin libraries at expense.

[finsobruce]

Feb 26, 2017 18:31:56 GMT An Sionnach Flannbhuí said:

I thought I would take up the challenge and use my (currently, not complete) work to ask a series of questions, that I hope show that there is a challenge and there are problems largely with classification, and both Walker and Craig’s analyses sometimes contradict the consensus view of the primary sources.

Was John Pinkerton (North Antrim, 1885) an Independent (Walker), Nationalist (Craig and most other sources) or a Liberal (Debrett’s 1886)?

Pinkerton was MP for Galway (1886-1900) . An admittedly hostile letter about him in the Dublin World in November 1899 described him as a "thoroughly loyal henchman of Mr Dillon" and a "milk and water home ruler". It complained that he hardly ever turned up in the Commons... I would say that tips him towards being a Nationalist, although of course a Protestant nationalist, which might explain some of the hostility. Hope that helps.