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Post by middleenglander on Feb 8, 2021 16:10:40 GMT
The effect of a decade of Tory/Lib Dem cuts to the court service there. Or gross inefficiency of the judicial system |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Feb 8, 2021 16:15:04 GMT
The effect of a decade of Tory/Lib Dem cuts to the court service there. How large would Labour's cuts to the court service have been? Labour has never made any cut to the Courts Service since 2010. Deny that if you can. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Feb 8, 2021 16:16:10 GMT
The effect of a decade of Tory/Lib Dem cuts to the court service there. Or gross inefficiency of the judicial system Literally no other explanation is conceivable. By the way why are all these people walking around wearing masks? |
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Post by middleenglander on Feb 8, 2021 16:19:05 GMT
Or gross inefficiency of the judicial system Literally no other explanation is conceivable. By the way why are all these people walking around wearing masks? I can see that there may have been a delay in undertaking the recount because they were wearing masks. I do not see why there has been a delay in writing a report because masks do not cover the eyes. Will be interesting to see what the report actually says. |
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zoe
Conservative
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Post by zoe on Feb 8, 2021 17:40:38 GMT
Literally no other explanation is conceivable. By the way why are all these people walking around wearing masks? I can see that there may have been a delay in undertaking the recount because they were wearing masks. I do not see why there has been a delay in writing a report because masks do not cover the eyes. Will be interesting to see what the report actually says. Blind justice |
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Post by grahammurray on Feb 8, 2021 20:20:54 GMT
How large would Labour's cuts to the court service have been? Labour has never made any cut to the Courts Service since 2010. Deny that if you can. I can't deny it and am not sure why I'd need to as it isn't the question I asked. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Feb 8, 2021 20:56:51 GMT
Labour has never made any cut to the Courts Service since 2010. Deny that if you can. I can't deny it and am not sure why I'd need to as it isn't the question I asked. Ah, so you admit it! |
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Post by grahammurray on Feb 8, 2021 21:15:07 GMT
I can't deny it and am not sure why I'd need to as it isn't the question I asked. Ah, so you admit it! Lawyerly tricks. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Feb 18, 2021 16:48:26 GMT
Still listed:
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Post by johnloony on Feb 19, 2021 10:06:46 GMT
I have been reading back through this thread to remind myself of what the issue was in Brent (Barnhill ward), so (while we're waiting) here is just a reminder of what the declared result was on 23rd January 2020:
Mansoor Akram (Lab) 1194
Gaynor Lloyd (Lab) 1152
Kanta Mistry (Con) 1082
Stefan Voloseniuc (Con) 1018
Martin Francis (Green) 231
Peter Murry (Green) 171
Michael Brooke (LD) 118
Larry Ngan (LD) 76
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Post by johnloony on Feb 19, 2021 10:13:29 GMT
The first one of your list (1973) was David Simpson, not David White. Now corrected. (For in case I haven't mentioned it before): The reason I knew which was which is because David White lives very close to me in Croydon, and David Simpson was my A-Level Politics teacher |
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Post by middleenglander on Feb 19, 2021 10:19:53 GMT
Wembley Matters says Brent Council does not have a policy / procedure / protocol / whatever for dealing with a request for a bundle check / recount. It suggests that a 10 minute check on the night of 23 January 2020 would have saved a lot of cost / expense / trouble during the past year.
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Post by johnloony on Feb 19, 2021 10:27:27 GMT
Wembley Matters says Brent Council does not have a policy / procedure / protocol / whatever for dealing with a request for a bundle check / recount. It suggests that a 10 minute check on the night of 23 January 2020 would have saved a lot of cost / expense / trouble during the past year. Has Wembley Matters also said that the Pope shits in the woods or that bears are Catholic? |
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ColinJ
Labour
Living in the Past
Posts: 2,126
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Post by ColinJ on Feb 19, 2021 10:27:53 GMT
Wembley Matters says Brent Council does not have a policy / procedure / protocol / whatever for dealing with a request for a bundle check / recount. It suggests that a 10 minute check on the night of 23 January 2020 would have saved a lot of cost / expense / trouble during the past year. I'm sure this is the case with 99% of local authorities. Usually common sense kicks in about what is needed to confirm the validity of close figures. We will soon find out (hopefully) whether the petition was vexatious or not, and whether we solve the mystery of the broken seals on the storage container of the retained ballot papers. |
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Post by middleenglander on Feb 19, 2021 11:16:44 GMT
I missed the first 50 seconds of the hearing but I think the petition has been dismissed as the recount confirmed the original result. The Judges have adjourned to consider the issue of costs. They are due to reconvene at 11.30. Petitioners to pay all the costs - suggested at £30k.
However there have been several minutes of argument over the payment and what the split between interim and final should be. The lead Judge was getting uptight because this had not been settled before hand and adjourned the court until 12.30 so the two parties could attempt to reach agreement.
The lead Judge also displayed exasperation that this relatively straight forward matter had taken up so much of the Court's time when he was considering a Planning Application of national importance.
Apparently if the petitioners had withdrawn after the recount on 16 July, when the votes were confirmed with minor differences, they would automatically had costs awarded against them.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,889
Member is Online
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Post by The Bishop on Feb 19, 2021 12:20:34 GMT
Ah, so in the end the mountain brought forth a mouse?
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ColinJ
Labour
Living in the Past
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Post by ColinJ on Feb 19, 2021 12:26:43 GMT
This is Wembley Matters on the latest news: The Conservative candidates in the Barnhill by-election case today lost their case against Carolyn Downs, Brent Council Returning Officer this morning. The recount ordered as a result of the petition by losing candidates Stefan Volesenic and Kanta Mistry revealed only a handful of votes difference in the by-election declaration which had given the Labour candidates Gaynor Lloyd and Mansoor Akram victory.
The Court also found that Carolyn Downs refusal of a recount in the early hours of January 24th 2020 had been reasonable and vindicated by the Court recount. The petitioners had not only requested a recount but the intention was to unseat the Labour candidates.
The petitioners were ordered to pay costs of £30,000 to Downs and the court is currently considering the costs of Mansoor and Lloyd.
So, by lengthening the whole process, the result is even greater costs than if the petition had been abandoned after the Court-run recount? |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Feb 19, 2021 13:55:21 GMT
It's a lesson, possibly to us all, that taking rumours at the count of large numbers of hidden votes seriously can be seriously costly.
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ColinJ
Labour
Living in the Past
Posts: 2,126
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Post by ColinJ on Feb 19, 2021 14:11:12 GMT
The Wembley Matters blog has been updated. It is a useful summary and probably very little else needs to be said on the matter. Conservative petitioners lose Barnhill By-Election court case and will have to pay £68,000 costs
The Conservative candidates in the Barnhill by-election case today lost their case against Carolyn Downs, Brent Council Returning Officer in a Queens Bench hearing at the Royal Courts of Justice.
The recount ordered as a result of the petition by losing candidates Stefan Volesenic and Kanta Mistry revealed only a handful of votes difference in the by-election declaration which had given the Labour candidates Gaynor Lloyd and Mansoor Akram victory. The Conservative allegation that a 100 vote bundle had been placed in the wrong bundle was therefore unfounded.
The Court also found that Carolyn Downs' refusal of a recount in the early hours of January 24th 2020 had been reasonable and vindicated by the Court recount. Mr Justice Holgate said that the petitioners had not only requested a recount but their intention was clearly to unseat the Labour candidates.
Mr Justice Holgate said that after the Court recount (the result of which had not been publicised) the petitioners had taken no action for 4 months which had caused Downs to seek a special case.
The by-election had been declared correctly and this was not now in dispute between the parties concerned.
On the matter of the missing seal on a bag of votes, Brent Council had been open about the matter and informed the parties immediately and the explanation that the cause was the poor quality of the seals at the time accepted.
The petitioners were ordered to pay costs of £30,000 to Carolyn Downs as Returning Officer and a total of £38,000 legal costs to Cllr Lloyd and Cllr Akram.
When there was some delay and prevarication over the costs negotiations Mr Justice Holgate said that this should have been decided between parties before the hearing. The difference between the parties was small and a detailed assessment would add disproportionately to the costs. Clearly irritated, he said that this was a very, very. very small issue and urged those involved to get it into perspective - he had a very large planning case to decide.
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Post by middleenglander on Feb 19, 2021 17:02:30 GMT
The legal team for the Council and the 2 Councillors was led by Timothy Straker QC, who has acted in multiple election petitions in England, Wales and Trinidad & Tobago, which operates under as similar regime. He has appeared in the vast majority of the most important election cases of the last 25 years starting with the "Literal Democrat" case, which directly led to the creation of the Electoral Commission for which he has acted. He has principally acted for Returning Officers throughout the country. He sits as an election commissioner.
Sarah Sackman, a barrister with an expertise in education law along with public and local government law and planning was part of the Councillors team. She was the Labour candidate in 2015 for the Finchley & Golder Green constituency. Graham Shamash was also part of this team and has acted as the solicitor to the Labour Party for some 30 years.
Members of the public were asked to both mute their computer and switch off the camera. However members of the various legal teams occasionally left theirs on during the adjournments. The conversations were nearly as interesting as at Handforth Parish Council.
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