Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 8:37:47 GMT
If Britain had signed the Treaties of Rome in 1957 and joined the EEC at the start, would it as a major co-founder have changed the nature of today's EU so much that the Referendum would have never taken place?
|
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,893 
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Nov 5, 2016 11:10:31 GMT
How can we possibly know? I would have been against it from that moment as a 14-year old. I see a centrist dirigiste rule obsessed and proto-federalist spirit to have always been present. As such I would be totally opposed to it and working to destroy it whether we were in it or not.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 14:24:36 GMT
How can we possibly know? I would have been against it from that moment as a 14-year old. I see a centrist dirigiste rule obsessed and proto-federalist spirit to have always been present. As such I would be totally opposed to it and working to destroy it whether we were in it or not. Really how prescient of you at 14. Most of us at that age would have been out with friends enjoying life, music and girlfriends. Clearly exposure to such important issues at an early age did not improve your wisdom in them... |
|
|
|
Post by finsobruce on Nov 5, 2016 14:28:02 GMT
How can we possibly know? I would have been against it from that moment as a 14-year old. I see a centrist dirigiste rule obsessed and proto-federalist spirit to have always been present. As such I would be totally opposed to it and working to destroy it whether we were in it or not. Really how prescient of you at 14. Most of us at that age would have been out with friends enjoying life, music and girlfriends. Clearly exposure to such important issues at an early age did not improve your wisdom in them... I suspect Carlton was doing both. and I also suspect that there were plenty of us on here who were thinking about such stuff at 14. In our bedrooms, on our own, surrounded by newspapers and books...  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 14:32:30 GMT
Really how prescient of you at 14. Most of us at that age would have been out with friends enjoying life, music and girlfriends. Clearly exposure to such important issues at an early age did not improve your wisdom in them... I suspect Carlton was doing both. and I also suspect that there were plenty of us on here who were thinking about such stuff at 14. In our bedrooms, on our own, surrounded by newspapers and books... I remember mapping the progress of the Vietnam War, day by day, until it ended in 1975, when I was 13... |
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,893
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Nov 5, 2016 14:58:04 GMT
How can we possibly know? I would have been against it from that moment as a 14-year old. I see a centrist dirigiste rule obsessed and proto-federalist spirit to have always been present. As such I would be totally opposed to it and working to destroy it whether we were in it or not. Really how prescient of you at 14. Most of us at that age would have been out with friends enjoying life, music and girlfriends. Clearly exposure to such important issues at an early age did not improve your wisdom in them... Don't do that 'thing' again. It just demeans you. Of course I was gauche and shallow and too intense at 14. I mention it because I was there at the time and had a view as Grammar School boy with an intense interest in newspapers, books and current affairs. Not many were 'out enjoying life, music and girlfriends' at 14 in 1957, unless on the wrong side of the tracks and only a minority at that. Tell us a bit about your own early life loves and progress. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 14:59:36 GMT
I suspect Carlton was doing both. and I also suspect that there were plenty of us on here who were thinking about such stuff at 14. In our bedrooms, on our own, surrounded by newspapers and books... I remember mapping the progress of the Vietnam War, day by day, until it ended in 1975, when I was 13... Even more amazing. So you followed the course of the war from before you were born? I bet your parents were really pleased to have a prodigy of 6 months old telling them what was happening in Vietnam. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 15:15:57 GMT
Really how prescient of you at 14. Most of us at that age would have been out with friends enjoying life, music and girlfriends. Clearly exposure to such important issues at an early age did not improve your wisdom in them... Don't do that 'thing' again. It just demeans you. Of course I was gauche and shallow and too intense at 14. I mention it because I was there at the time and had a view as Grammar School boy with an intense interest in newspapers, books and current affairs. Not many were 'out enjoying life, music and girlfriends' at 14 in 1957, unless on the wrong side of the tracks and only a minority at that. Tell us a bit about your own early life loves and progress. At the age of 13 I was captured by the mass hysteria which was the Falklands War and enthusiastically and immaturely celebrated the deaths of Argentines in battle. By the time I was 18 I came to feel immense shame that I had glorified in the deaths of fellow human beings. From that moment on I have also resisted the siren call of dodgy and insincere politicians and I feel much better for it. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 15:19:14 GMT
Even more amazing. So you followed the course of the war from before you were born? I bet your parents were really pleased to have a prodigy of 6 months old telling them what was happening in Vietnam. You really revel in your "uniqueness", don't you, Arschloch?  and am so flattered.. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 15:39:14 GMT
Getting back to the original question.. Had Britain joined when the original treaties were signed the organisation which is today the EU could have developed much differently. For a start Britain would not have been sidelined as often as it is today on issues such as migrants, economic policy and the Euro. Our influence would have been much greater and respected. We would have been able to counter the grip France and Germany have on its development. However we choose to join later on less favourable terms, and then simply annoyed everyone by insisting on the other member states doing it our way when there wasn't the support. We continued on that vein throughout our membership, failing to make the effort to secure allies until the point when it was too late. How far do you think Britain would have got with our NATO allies if we had treated them in the way we engage (or fail to) with our fellow European member states? ANSWER - No where at all. If we had wanted just a free-trade area rather than the more effective community based organisations, where sovereignty was pooled (But not surrendered), then why ever did we leave EFTA ANSWER - because in the long term membership of EFTA was no good for our long term interests.
|
|
|
|
Post by No Offence Alan on Nov 5, 2016 18:04:40 GMT
Another interesting question would be what if De Gaulle had not said "Non" to the UK joining in the 60s.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 18:52:58 GMT
Another interesting question would be what if De Gaulle had not said "Non" to the UK joining in the 60s. Had we joined at the time of Ted Heath's negotiations during the Macmillan Government or the later attempt under Wilson, I think there would still have been a referendum after a couple of years to withdraw as happened in 1975. I think such a referendum would have succeeded because the memories of Empire were still too strong and our economic interests still remained with the Sterling Area countries. The Industrial unrest of the early 70s plus the oil shock of 1973 probably swung it for the British electorate in 1975 because they realised finally it was in our interests to remain. We joined at a time of weakness, and now we are leaving in a period of weakness and uncertainty. We missed the bus in 1957 and now not only are we jumping off the bus at full speed we are dumping ourselves in the middle of nowhere without a clear map to find our way home. |
|
Foggy
Non-Aligned
Yn Ennill Yma
Posts: 6,135
|
Post by Foggy on Nov 6, 2016 0:44:48 GMT
The original 1957 Treaty was in essence a merger of the European Coal and Steel Community, European Atomic Energy Community and proto-EEC that had been established earlier. As the UK was not a member of any of those organisations at the time, it could not reasonably expect to have been invited to sign the Treaty. There was no "bus" to miss.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2016 10:52:38 GMT
The original 1957 Treaty was in essence a merger of the European Coal and Steel Community, European Atomic Energy Community and proto-EEC that had been established earlier. As the UK was not a member of any of those organisations at the time, it could not reasonably expect to have been invited to sign the Treaty. There was no "bus" to miss. Actually the ECSC was created in 1951 by the Treaty of Paris, the EEC and Euratom were created by the Treaties of Rome in 1957. The merger of 2 of the 3 communities did not take place until much later. The ECSC treaty expired in 2002, and the Euratom treaty legally continues.
If the British governments of the time had shown more foresight rather than clinging to a dying empire they would have been "on the bus" and the rest of the passengers would have welcomed them. Anyway this is a "what if" scenario and sadly they chose not get on the bus and instead went in the opposite direction.
|
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,893
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Nov 6, 2016 10:58:58 GMT
The original 1957 Treaty was in essence a merger of the European Coal and Steel Community, European Atomic Energy Community and proto-EEC that had been established earlier. As the UK was not a member of any of those organisations at the time, it could not reasonably expect to have been invited to sign the Treaty. There was no "bus" to miss. Actually the ECSC was created in 1951 by the Treaty of Paris, the EEC and Euratom were created by the Treaties of Rome in 1957. The merger of 2 of the 3 communities did not take place until much later. The ECSC treaty expired in 2002, and the Euratom treaty legally continues.
If the British governments of the time had shown more foresight rather than clinging to a dying empire they would have been "on the bus" and the rest of the passengers would have welcomed them. Anyway this is a "what if" scenario and sadly they chose not get on the bus and instead went in the opposite direction.
There were attempts to get on the bus but the German driver failed to stop and the French conductor lashed out at us with his lofty shoulder bag. We did not go in the other direction as that was not possible. Think about it. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2016 11:21:05 GMT
Actually the ECSC was created in 1951 by the Treaty of Paris, the EEC and Euratom were created by the Treaties of Rome in 1957. The merger of 2 of the 3 communities did not take place until much later. The ECSC treaty expired in 2002, and the Euratom treaty legally continues.
If the British governments of the time had shown more foresight rather than clinging to a dying empire they would have been "on the bus" and the rest of the passengers would have welcomed them. Anyway this is a "what if" scenario and sadly they chose not get on the bus and instead went in the opposite direction.
There were attempts to get on the bus but the German driver failed to stop and the French conductor lashed out at us with his lofty shoulder bag. We did not go in the other direction as that was not possible. Think about it. Guess that depends on what I meant by "the opposite direction", what did you think I meant? Think about it. |
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,893
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Nov 6, 2016 11:29:19 GMT
There were attempts to get on the bus but the German driver failed to stop and the French conductor lashed out at us with his lofty shoulder bag. We did not go in the other direction as that was not possible. Think about it. Guess that depends on what I meant by "the opposite direction", what did you think I meant? Think about it. I just assumed, as usual, that you had written without engaging brain, and that it was another meaningless piece of nonsense. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2016 11:43:27 GMT
Guess that depends on what I meant by "the opposite direction", what did you think I meant? Think about it. I just assumed, as usual, that you had written without engaging brain, and that it was another meaningless piece of nonsense. Yes you are right I always engage in debate with grade "A" plum duffs without thinking about it because by operating on their level I won't be patronizing.. |
|
carlton43
Reform Party
Posts: 50,893
Member is Online
|
Post by carlton43 on Nov 6, 2016 12:19:49 GMT
I just assumed, as usual, that you had written without engaging brain, and that it was another meaningless piece of nonsense. Yes you are right I always engage in debate with grade "A" plum duffs without thinking about it because by operating on their level I won't be patronizing.. So, I am right. You admit is was nonsense. And we additionally learn that you are only posting for me which must be a considerable relief to all other members. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2016 12:28:54 GMT
Yes you are right I always engage in debate with grade "A" plum duffs without thinking about it because by operating on their level I won't be patronizing.. So, I am right. You admit is was nonsense. And we additionally learn that you are only posting for me which must be a considerable relief to all other members. I am flattered you think that. Sadly - for you, I do post others but you are my favourite Kipper |
|
