Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,012
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 27, 2015 0:16:38 GMT
It's terribly sad that Argentina once looked like it would become a rich,stable democracy, only to then suffer a century of scoundrels, arseholes, murderers, chancers, Peron, Menem and De La Rua plus assorted generals who'd never seen a battlefield but knew how to to torture people. What a waste of potential. I was thinking just the same last night. The divergence since the 1960 Chile earthquake between the economic fortunes of that country and Argentina has been striking. Chile has come on leaps and bounds, if anything Argentina has genuinely declined. It had it all and flushed it down the toilet. |
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 23,706
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Post by mboy on Oct 27, 2015 8:46:59 GMT
There used to be a phrase "As rich as an Argentinian". Now that would be a joke.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,916
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 27, 2015 10:41:48 GMT
Isn't there at least a bit of truth in that they were hit appallingly hard (more than even most N Hemisphere countries) by the Great Depression and never fully recovered?
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 12,012
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 27, 2015 12:06:34 GMT
Isn't there at least a bit of truth in that they were hit appallingly hard (more than even most N Hemisphere countries) by the Great Depression and never fully recovered? That doesn't explain why those countries that started well behind them then overtook them. As I said up thread, it's been the performance in the last 50 years in particular that's been particularly awful, especially when compared to their close neighbours. Very sad state of affairs and especially tragic when whichever government uses the grievance over the Falklands to distract the populous from the fact that their country is being royally screwed. And they fall for it... |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,916
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 27, 2015 12:21:28 GMT
Isn't there at least a bit of truth in that they were hit appallingly hard (more than even most N Hemisphere countries) by the Great Depression and never fully recovered? That doesn't explain why those countries that started well behind them then overtook them. As I said up thread, it's been the performance in the last 50 years in particular that's been particularly awful, especially when compared to their close neighbours. Very sad state of affairs and especially tragic when whichever government uses the grievance over the Falklands to distract the populous from the fact that their country is being royally screwed. And they fall for it...The people of Argentina are hardly unique in that respect (and we should know) |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 27, 2015 18:49:03 GMT
Very interesting Senor Tridente, enjoyed reading that.
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 23,706
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Post by mboy on Oct 27, 2015 20:27:48 GMT
To a certain extent this conforms to the Mediterranean stereotype found in, e.g. parts of Spain and most of southern Italy. I suppose that in Spain and Italy these are counterweighted by more serious attitudes from Catalonia and Northern Italy, respectively. Perhaps there is no counterweight in Argentina. But the question then becomes: it evidently wasn't like that in the 19th century, so what caused the change? I went on an Aerolineas Argentinas domestic flight I prefer Areolas Argentinas... |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2015 18:44:50 GMT
It's surprising in a way that Spanish, Galician and Catalan are the only languages (as far as I'm aware) that use upside down question marks/exclamation marks. I can see how they can be useful; they indicate what's coming up next while one reads.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Oct 28, 2015 21:25:02 GMT
To a certain extent this conforms to the Mediterranean stereotype found in, e.g. parts of Spain and most of southern Italy. I suppose that in Spain and Italy these are counterweighted by more serious attitudes from Catalonia and Northern Italy, respectively. Perhaps there is no counterweight in Argentina. But the question then becomes: it evidently wasn't like that in the 19th century, so what caused the change? Clearly you've never experienced the rush hour in Milan or Barcelona. |
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 23,706
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Post by mboy on Oct 29, 2015 9:54:00 GMT
To a certain extent this conforms to the Mediterranean stereotype found in, e.g. parts of Spain and most of southern Italy. I suppose that in Spain and Italy these are counterweighted by more serious attitudes from Catalonia and Northern Italy, respectively. Perhaps there is no counterweight in Argentina. But the question then becomes: it evidently wasn't like that in the 19th century, so what caused the change? Clearly you've never experienced the rush hour in Milan or Barcelona. I've experienced rush-hour in Naples, and can assure you that Milan has nothing on it. Naples is more terrifying than many 3rd world countries!  Barcelona wasnt that bad either. |
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Tony Otim
Green
Suffering from Brexistential Despair
Posts: 11,901
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Post by Tony Otim on Oct 29, 2015 11:12:57 GMT
Pah, none of it comes anywhere near to the chaos of rush hour in Kampala  |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Oct 29, 2015 11:36:58 GMT
Clearly you've never experienced the rush hour in Milan or Barcelona. I've experienced rush-hour in Naples, and can assure you that Milan has nothing on it. Naples is more terrifying than many 3rd world countries! Barcelona wasnt that bad either. My one experience of Barcelona in the rush hour wasn't pleasant, but I can assure you that Milan is at least as bad as Naples, with plenty of overtaking on the hard shoulder, gesticulation instead of braking and all the rest. Not that social mores about driving have anything to do with governance standards, still less stereotypes about 'Mediterraneans' - I'm reliably informed the Poles are even scarier to share a road with than the Italians. |
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Oct 29, 2015 12:17:39 GMT
I think that how people drive actually says a lot about their attitudes and values. Do they respect rules and regulations? Do they care about the safety of others or just about getting to their own destination a few seconds quicker? Do they cut corners or do things properly? Do they follow rules and regulations blindly, or do they think about the appropriate application of them to practically achieve what the regulations were theoretically intending to achieve? |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 29, 2015 20:45:07 GMT
I was reading today that Eva Peron's charitable foundation for Argentina's poor was funded by "voluntary" donations from their own union dues. Nobody paying their dues knew it was voluntary, of course, other than the people who volunteered everyone's cash.
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Post by Andrew_S on Oct 29, 2015 22:53:57 GMT
Paul Johnson: "In the 1930s it was the ninth richest country in the world, and as large a focus of immigration (chiefly from Italy) as the United States.
Then came Perón. He never forgave the Jockey Club for turning him down: he, his appalling wife, and their insensate followers comprehensively wrecked the Argentine economy and all its constitutional institutions — a good example of the destructive power of anti-snobbery. The country has never recovered, oscillating between democracy and military rule, mired in bottomless corruption, and with a credit rating poisoned by endemic inflation."www.standpointmag.co.uk/node/6228 |
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Post by Merseymike on Oct 30, 2015 0:00:33 GMT
I've experienced rush-hour in Naples, and can assure you that Milan has nothing on it. Naples is more terrifying than many 3rd world countries! Barcelona wasnt that bad either. My one experience of Barcelona in the rush hour wasn't pleasant, but I can assure you that Milan is at least as bad as Naples, with plenty of overtaking on the hard shoulder, gesticulation instead of braking and all the rest. Not that social mores about driving have anything to do with governance standards, still less stereotypes about 'Mediterraneans' - I'm reliably informed the Poles are even scarier to share a road with than the Italians. The ultimate in sheer craziness has to be India. But the crazy driving countries are the ones with colour, life, verve. So unlike Germany or Sweden. I am sure I would love Argentina. Hoping to go in the next couple of years. Maybe this is nature beating nurture as I'm half Hispanic American with the temperament to match even though I was adopted by a very English working class couple at 6 weeks of age ! |
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Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 16,028
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Post by Sibboleth on Oct 30, 2015 0:05:14 GMT
To a certain extent this conforms to the Mediterranean stereotype found in, e.g. parts of Spain and most of southern Italy. I suppose that in Spain and Italy these are counterweighted by more serious attitudes from Catalonia and Northern Italy, respectively. Perhaps there is no counterweight in Argentina. But the question then becomes: it evidently wasn't like that in the 19th century, so what caused the change? Why not take some skull measurements while we're at it? |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 30, 2015 0:18:14 GMT
My one experience of Barcelona in the rush hour wasn't pleasant, but I can assure you that Milan is at least as bad as Naples, with plenty of overtaking on the hard shoulder, gesticulation instead of braking and all the rest. Not that social mores about driving have anything to do with governance standards, still less stereotypes about 'Mediterraneans' - I'm reliably informed the Poles are even scarier to share a road with than the Italians. The ultimate in sheer craziness has to be India. But the crazy driving countries are the ones with colour, life, verve. So unlike Germany or Sweden. You're not looking hard enough. Germany is marvellous. Sweden is admittedly crap. |
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 23,706
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Post by mboy on Oct 30, 2015 9:50:29 GMT
Why not take some skull measurements while we're at it? I think you're right. The fact that most immigrants to Argentina were Italian, and before that it was settled by the Spanish had no influence whatsoever on Argentine culture. If most of the immigrants had been Swedish or Chinese then Argentine culture would be almost identical  |
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Oct 30, 2015 10:06:58 GMT
Not that social mores about driving have anything to do with governance standards, still less stereotypes about 'Mediterraneans' - I'm reliably informed the Poles are even scarier to share a road with than the Italians. I'm not sure Poland's politics and governance are all that great either..... I think that how people drive actually says a lot about their attitudes and values. Do they respect rules and regulations? Do they care about the safety of others or just about getting to their own destination a few seconds quicker? Do they cut corners or do things properly? I think it says a lot about their attitude to driving regulations. I don't think you can generalise from that point - it's perfectly possible to have an anarchic driving culture and still to have low levels of corruption, for example. Why not take some skull measurements while we're at it? I think you're right. The fact that most immigrants to Argentina were Italian, and before that it was settled by the Spanish had no influence whatsoever on Argentine culture. If most of the immigrants had been Swedish or Chinese then Argentine culture would be almost identical I think you may know fuck-all about patterns of immigration to Argentina, unless you perhaps have some racial slurs about the Irish you'd like to share with us? |
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