Historical hansard

[mick745]

Does anyone know how to extract divisions data from historical hansard? Everytime i click on the link i get an error message. I was trying to extract the members who voted in the vote of no confidence in march 1979.

[Deleted]

Jun 20, 2015 7:20:28 GMT mick745 said:

Does anyone know how to extract divisions data from historical hansard? Everytime i click on the link i get an error message. I was trying to extract the members who voted in the vote of no confidence in march 1979.

Near the bottom of this page:

hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1979/mar/28/her-majestys-government-opposition-motion

[mick745]

Thanks for that but i am sure at one time you could export the division lists straight into excel by clicking on the links such as from this page:

hansard.millbanksystems.com/divisions/h

the links no longer work though. I guess they removed that feature.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Here's the result of 28 March 1979:

PARTY	AYES	NOES	NOT VOTING	TOTAL
Labour		305	1	306
Conservative	281			281
Liberal	13			13
Scottish National Party	11			11
Ulster Unionists	5	2		7
Plaid Cymru		3		3
Scottish Labour Party		2		2
Independent Republican			1	1
Independent Ulster Unionist	1			1
SDLP			1	1
Ulster Democratic Unionist	1			1
United Ulster Unionist	1			1
Speaker and Deputies			4	4
Vacant seats			3	3
TOTAL	313	312	10	635
Exclude two tellers	311	310

[johnloony]

Jun 20, 2015 9:06:10 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

Here's the result of 28 March 1979:

PARTY	AYES	NOES	NOT VOTING	TOTAL
Labour		305	1	306

Who was the Labour not voting? I probably should know but can't remember.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Doc Broughton.

[johnloony]

Jun 20, 2015 9:06:10 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

Vacant seats

3

3

From Wikipedia:

Four seats were vacant when Parliament was dissolved preparatory to the 1979 General Election:

Abingdon – Airey Neave (Con)
Batley and Morley – Alfred Broughton (Lab)
Chipping Barnet – Reginald Maudling (Con)
North East Derbyshire – Tom Swain (Lab)

In addition, Maurice Orbach (Labour MP for Stockport South) died on 24 April, after dissolution but before the general election.

If I remember correctly, the Conservative chief whip, Bernard Weatherill, offered to abstain in order to pair with Broughton, but the Labour chief whip released him from the obligation (presumably on the practical assesment that saving the government for another few weeks was less damaging than to allow Weatherill's career to be harmed). But in considering the three vacant seats, it occurs to me that they - in combination with the absent Broughton - can, in a sense, considered to be paired with each other and thus cancel each other out in a way which makes it not necessary for Weatherill to have made his offer. It would have been more awkward (although not, of course unconstitutional or improper) if all three (or more) vacancies had all been of the same party, thereby creating a temporary artificial imbalance in the House.

[mick745]

Jun 23, 2015 2:58:01 GMT johnloony said:

Jun 20, 2015 9:06:10 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

Vacant seats

3

3

From Wikipedia:

Four seats were vacant when Parliament was dissolved preparatory to the 1979 General Election:

Abingdon – Airey Neave (Con)
Batley and Morley – Alfred Broughton (Lab)
Chipping Barnet – Reginald Maudling (Con)
North East Derbyshire – Tom Swain (Lab)

In addition, Maurice Orbach (Labour MP for Stockport South) died on 24 April, after dissolution but before the general election.

If I remember correctly, the Conservative chief whip, Bernard Weatherill, offered to abstain in order to pair with Broughton, but the Labour chief whip released him from the obligation (presumably on the practical assesment that saving the government for another few weeks was less damaging than to allow Weatherill's career to be harmed). But in considering the three vacant seats, it occurs to me that they - in combination with the absent Broughton - can, in a sense, considered to be paired with each other and thus cancel each other out in a way which makes it not necessary for Weatherill to have made his offer. It would have been more awkward (although not, of course unconstitutional or improper) if all three (or more) vacancies had all been of the same party, thereby creating a temporary artificial imbalance in the House.

There must have been only 2 vacant seats then. Airey neave voted in the confidence motion and was murdered the day after. Alfred Broughton died a few days later.

[greatkingrat]

At the time of the no confidence motion (28 Mar) the 3 vacant seats were Chipping Barnet, NE Derbyshire and Liverpool Edge Hill.

The Edge Hill by-election was held on 30 Mar, won by David Alton for the Liberals, then Neave and Broughton died, leaving 4 vacant seats at dissolution.

[mick745]

Jun 24, 2015 20:51:18 GMT greatkingrat said:

At the time of the no confidence motion (28 Mar) the 3 vacant seats were Chipping Barnet, NE Derbyshire and Liverpool Edge Hill.

The Edge Hill by-election was held on 30 Mar, won by David Alton for the Liberals, then Neave and Broughton died, leaving 4 vacant seats at dissolution.

Thank you for the explanation.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Jun 23, 2015 2:58:01 GMT johnloony said:

If I remember correctly, the Conservative chief whip, Bernard Weatherill, offered to abstain in order to pair with Broughton, but the Labour chief whip released him from the obligation (presumably on the practical assesment that saving the government for another few weeks was less damaging than to allow Weatherill's career to be harmed).

The story is that, late on the afternoon of 28 March, Labour whip Walter Harrison formally asked Bernard Weatherill (the Conservative deputy chief whip, not chief whip) for a pair for Doc Broughton. Harrison claimed that Weatherill had promised he would pair in such circumstances. Weatherill could not remember doing so, and had been instructed that no pairs would be provided for the vote in any case. But such was the bond of trust between them that he said that if Harrison absolutely insisted that a pair had been promised, then Weatherill himself would be the pair and not vote. Such a move would have been career suicide for Weatherill. Harrison at that point said that he could not possibly ask Weatherill to do that.

Notwithstanding that the story (told by Weatherill in 2004) has been turned into the centrepiece of a play performed on the largest stage at the National Theatre, I must confess that I don't think it's true.

But in considering the three vacant seats, it occurs to me that they - in combination with the absent Broughton - can, in a sense, considered to be paired with each other and thus cancel each other out in a way which makes it not necessary for Weatherill to have made his offer.

Well not really as two of the vacant seats were Labour and only one a Conservative.

[johnloony]

Bang goes my theory then. I must have been getting confused between the date of the confidence vote and the date of the dissolution - which were, of course, different dates.

[neilm]

Changing the subject slightly, do we know how many government MPs are paired? It's not like 1997 when there weren't enough opposition members to go around.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Routine pairing was suspended during the dying days of the Major administration and has never resumed.

[neilm]

Aah, really? I know or know of several MPs with pairs so presumably they organise it themselves?

[East Anglian Lefty]

When was formal pairing first set up? It's a gentlemanly enough concept that it seems fundamentally 19th century, but then again it requires a significantly organised whips set-up that it would surely have been difficult to do in an era of amateurs.