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Post by Merseymike on Dec 8, 2019 20:22:17 GMT
Only a LibDem can conclude that being on 14% means the Labour party has 'had it'
And we are leaving the EU because of a referendum held in 2016 which instructed us to leave.
Parliament for the last three years has been unable or unwilling to support any compromise, hence that referendum is likely to be enacted.
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BMG
Dec 8, 2019 21:00:43 GMT
Post by Merseymike on Dec 8, 2019 21:00:43 GMT
Of course Swinson's appalling campaign has nothing to do with it...... The hubristic insistence that the LDs could win a majority was childish & pathetic. And that's just for starters. It's going to be really, really hard to vote for that shower. But I think I'm going to. Trying to organize a vote swap. See if you can persuade Adam in Stroud |
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BMG
Dec 8, 2019 21:12:08 GMT
Post by Adam in Stroud on Dec 8, 2019 21:12:08 GMT
Of course Swinson's appalling campaign has nothing to do with it...... The hubristic insistence that the LDs could win a majority was childish & pathetic. And that's just for starters. It's going to be really, really hard to vote for that shower. But I think I'm going to. Trying to organize a vote swap. See if you can persuade Adam in Stroud I'm going through Stroud 4 Europe as they have lists with sister organisations in the county. It feels more reliable that way - a bit more connection with the other person so I at least would feel worse about stitching them up. |
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BMG
Dec 8, 2019 21:25:16 GMT
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Post by london(ex)tory on Dec 8, 2019 21:25:16 GMT
It is beginning to be quite clear. The Labour Party has had it. Their stupidity over the last year means we are going to leave the EU. Politics in the spring will be dominated by the internal Labour trench warfare. No your lordship, the reason we are going to leave the EU is nothing to do with the labour party, it's because we voted for it in the referendum. You call yourself a democrat - time you started acting like one. |
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Chris from Brum
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Dec 8, 2019 21:30:25 GMT
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Post by Chris from Brum on Dec 8, 2019 21:30:25 GMT
It is beginning to be quite clear. The Labour Party has had it. Their stupidity over the last year means we are going to leave the EU. Politics in the spring will be dominated by the internal Labour trench warfare. No your lordship, the reason we are going to leave the EU is nothing to do with the labour party, it's because we voted for it in the referendum. You call yourself a democrat - time you started acting like one. You first. Democracy includes, and always has, the right to change your mind. |
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Dec 8, 2019 21:36:34 GMT
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Post by stewart64 on Dec 8, 2019 21:36:34 GMT
That brings them back into the cluster. That's a blow for Labour. Their favourite outlier going from +6 to +9 in favour of Tories. Been a grim day, only Survation left to save the weekend. |
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spqr
Non-Aligned
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Dec 8, 2019 21:41:49 GMT
Post by spqr on Dec 8, 2019 21:41:49 GMT
No your lordship, the reason we are going to leave the EU is nothing to do with the labour party, it's because we voted for it in the referendum. You call yourself a democrat - time you started acting like one. You first. Democracy includes, and always has, the right to change your mind. Once we're out of the EU such people (and there don't seem to be all that many of them) will have every chance in the world to act on that. Nobody will try to stop them. |
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Dec 8, 2019 21:49:33 GMT
Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Dec 8, 2019 21:49:33 GMT
On the idea of vote swaps above, I hate the idea and see them as profoundly wrong in a moral sense as the vote is too precious to be a play thing. You should always vote your conscience. I understand the frustration, I have always voted in Dundee West and now in Edinburgh East, we have no chance in these seats. However, if you vote your conscience you still vote with conviction and with your head held high.
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Sibboleth
Labour
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Dec 8, 2019 21:50:53 GMT
Post by Sibboleth on Dec 8, 2019 21:50:53 GMT
There does seem to be something of a polling consensus (not a total one, not quite) around a swing of between 3.0 and 4.5 or so. At least for the moment. Of course the absurd electoral system we are lumbered with being what it is, the difference in seats between 3.0 and 4.5 would be quite considerable.
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Dec 8, 2019 22:02:30 GMT
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Post by stewart64 on Dec 8, 2019 22:02:30 GMT
There does seem to be something of a polling consensus (not a total one, not quite) around a swing of between 3.0 and 4.5 or so. At least for the moment. Of course the absurd electoral system we are lumbered with being what it is, the difference in seats between 3.0 and 4.5 would be quite considerable. I'd imagine that Labour will still see it as winnable from here ( ie. Hung). They will be full out on the marginals. If you are a Tory it probably feels a bit like playing the Aussies at cricket. You might have a 300 first innings lead but they often comeback from the dead. Corbyn still has this election aura; until it's undone, which it might be on the 13th. |
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Deleted
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Dec 8, 2019 22:04:45 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2019 22:04:45 GMT
As someone who cant vote if i could i would not vote swap but i dont judge those who do
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Post by Defenestrated Fipplebox on Dec 9, 2019 8:31:55 GMT
It is beginning to be quite clear. The Labour Party has had it. Their stupidity over the last year means we are going to leave the EU. Politics in the spring will be dominated by the internal Labour trench warfare.
The politics in the spring may be dominated by Labour internal trench warfare, brought on by delusional ideals of a socialist utopia;
but
we will leave the EU assuming Boris Johnson and the Conservatives get a majority, which I think is likely, because of Liberal Democrats and SNP delusions that they could win more seats, by shouting Remain at a turned off bored electorate. This delusion meant they forced this election on Jeremy Corbyn and Labour, so if we leave quickly, it will be down to the Liberal Democrats and the SNP.
You say Labour has had it and is an irrelevance, no, not under first past the post and not whilst the Liberal Democrats seem to despise over 50% of the electorate.
The reality is that both Labour and the Liberal Democrats need to get their houses in better order, in order to be able to take of the mess Boris Johnson will make of government in the next few years, and mark my words he will.
The Conservative Party will only win because they are currently seen as the least incompetent of 3 incompetent parties, unfortunately for them that means they will get the poisoned chalice of forming the next government.
So the outcome of the election is that in some way or other all parties lose.
👽
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Pimpernal
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Post by Pimpernal on Dec 9, 2019 8:40:54 GMT
It is beginning to be quite clear. The Labour Party has had it. Their stupidity over the last year means we are going to leave the EU. Politics in the spring will be dominated by the internal Labour trench warfare. No - the attempts by Remainiacs to thwart a deal of any kind has resulted in the Boris win, a Deal going through, and the destruction of both Labour and the Lib dems. You have reaped the anti-democratic crop you yourselves have sown. |
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Dec 9, 2019 9:04:38 GMT
Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Dec 9, 2019 9:04:38 GMT
It is beginning to be quite clear. The Labour Party has had it. Their stupidity over the last year means we are going to leave the EU. Politics in the spring will be dominated by the internal Labour trench warfare. No - the attempts by Remainiacs to thwart a deal of any kind has resulted in the Boris win, a Deal going through, and the destruction of both Labour and the Lib dems. You have reaped the anti-democratic crop you yourselves have sown. The referendum was not itself a sufficient democratic mandate and has in any case long since expired. Those who insist it means any deal must be accepted are acting anti-democratically. |
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Pimpernal
Forum Regular
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Post by Pimpernal on Dec 9, 2019 9:12:55 GMT
No - the attempts by Remainiacs to thwart a deal of any kind has resulted in the Boris win, a Deal going through, and the destruction of both Labour and the Lib dems. You have reaped the anti-democratic crop you yourselves have sown. The referendum was not itself a sufficient democratic mandate and has in any case long since expired. Those who insist it means any deal must be accepted are acting anti-democratically. Just reap what you have sown. Your Party in 2017 pledged to honour the Referendum result. You got a soft enough Deal under May but too many of you quibbled and opposed it because your real aim was to thwart Brexit. There was never going to be a deal that satisfied you - you just intended to stop Brexit whilst pretending to honour the result. Your party tried to mislead the people and have been rumbled. Suck it up. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Dec 9, 2019 9:17:50 GMT
The referendum was not itself a sufficient democratic mandate and has in any case long since expired. Those who insist it means any deal must be accepted are acting anti-democratically. Just reap what you have sown. Your Party in 2017 pledged to honour the Referendum result. You got a soft enough Deal under May but too many of you quibbled and opposed it because your real aim was to thwart Brexit. There was never going to be a deal that satisfied you - you just intended to stop Brexit whilst pretending to honour the result. Your party tried to mislead the people and have been rumbled. Suck it up. Can't blame me for what "my party" does as I've been an open critic of its leadership since 2015. Yes, it was right to try to stop Brexit from going ahead because it had not sufficient democratic mandate. The word "honour" is being misunderstood. It does not mean "take a 51.9% vote to mean unequivocal authorisation of any possible interpretation including lots of things that had been explicitly ruled out". Honouring the 2016 referendum does not necessarily require leaving the EU. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 9, 2019 9:24:41 GMT
The referendum was not itself a sufficient democratic mandate and has in any case long since expired. Those who insist it means any deal must be accepted are acting anti-democratically. Just reap what you have sown. Your Party in 2017 pledged to honour the Referendum result. You got a soft enough Deal under May but too many of you quibbled and opposed it because your real aim was to thwart Brexit. There was never going to be a deal that satisfied you - you just intended to stop Brexit whilst pretending to honour the result. Your party tried to mislead the people and have been rumbled. Suck it up. I don't think May's deal was particularly good and it was reasonable to oppose it. It's not as if she made any effort to cross party lines. Where I agree with you is the failure of Labour MPs to vote for a couple of the indicative vote alternatives. At least two would have been acceptable. It was quite clear that there was organised voting to ensure nothing would go through. I have always held the view that Labour should, once we have left, focus on developing a very different vision of a Britain outside the EU from the free market, individualist vision beloved of the Tories, which I think will very quickly disappoint. I think the Labour left will be able to adapt to this reasonably quickly. I am not at all sure that some of the Labour right have ever managed to grasp this need at all I still think Johnson's deal will get nowhere and the EU will only agree to a trade deal which fits with its model of benefits being for signed up members of the political union, and others, particularly former members, will have to accept a level playing field in exchange for a trade deal. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 9, 2019 9:28:58 GMT
Honouring the 2016 referendum does not necessarily require leaving the EU. I don't see how a remain or leave referendum which said leave can be interpreted in any other way. Hence the call for a second referendum for those who wanted to reverse the result. |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Dec 9, 2019 9:32:02 GMT
Honouring the 2016 referendum does not necessarily require leaving the EU. I don't see how a remain or leave referendum which said leave can be interpreted in any other way. Referendums can only ever be advisory. To leave at all only honours 51.9% of it. To leave the single market takes it well below 50%. Third referendum. 1975 was the first. |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 9, 2019 9:41:31 GMT
No party ever said anything about the advisory status of the referendum during it - I think this is one of the key reasons why there has become such a hardening of view since the referendum. The appearance has been people who said they would implement it saying they don't wish to.
The reason Ed Miliband didn't want a referendum was his view that Labour could not implement a leave outcome. If that was our view then we should have made it clear during the referendum. But we didn't.
I still think that the view in the country is effectively 50-50. And I question whether it's really possible to remain in a political union when half the population doesn't want to be part of it.
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