Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2014 0:07:25 GMT
"Podemos" is of course the Spanish for "We can". Did they draw some inspiration from Barack Obama's 2008 slogan?
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2014 0:10:49 GMT
However, does that not lead to a lack of credibility on economic matters? Would that not lead to serious consequences on the international and domestic economic markets? Stuff the 'markets' |
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2014 0:12:15 GMT
Perhaps, perhaps not. The consequences depend a lot on the detail. If the debts are owed mostly to large institutions that are capable of writing it off, then the consequences to markets would be fairly minimal. If they aren't, then the consequences could be more significant. Spain wouldn't be the first government that has defaulted on its debts, and it almost certainly wouldn't be the last. I don't think it works like that. Just because you can afford to write off the debts, doesn't mean you're going to react favourably. Defaulting would make Spain a lot of enemies amongst its creditors and make it much more difficult for it to access the bond markets in future. Globalisation makes it harder and harder to get away with defaulting. But globalisation has to go if there is to be any chance of progress. |
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Post by Arthur Figgis on Dec 2, 2014 0:14:38 GMT
So does gravity.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Dec 2, 2014 0:14:51 GMT
Do you have a plan to make it go? Because otherwise, that's not really a meaningful statement. Within the confines of the game as it is currently structured, unilaterally defaulting on debt is a very risky strategy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2014 0:32:14 GMT
I don't think it works like that. Just because you can afford to write off the debts, doesn't mean you're going to react favourably. Defaulting would make Spain a lot of enemies amongst its creditors and make it much more difficult for it to access the bond markets in future. Globalisation makes it harder and harder to get away with defaulting. But globalisation has to go if there is to be any chance of progress. And back in the real world where the Spanish sell their products abroad and buy imports this party will inflict massive further damage on the economy. An economy that is too big to bail out. How can Spanish companies rely on domestic demand when the unemployment and poverty is so high. No globalisation means a return to extortionately priced consumer products, little choice, poor quality and economic decline. Yes it might increase employment. That's not a price worth paying. There are less damaging ways to achieve that, ie new labours creation of public sector non jobs. |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Dec 2, 2014 0:46:21 GMT
Which is just as damaging in the long run.
I'm on the cusp of buying a place in Spain.
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Post by Merseymike on Dec 2, 2014 20:37:47 GMT
No. Globalisation just isn't sustainable. Either we plan for change or suffer the consequences of collapse
If you don't recognise how damaging the excess of consumerism has been to date then that must just reflect our different value systems
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Dec 2, 2014 21:57:24 GMT
Defaulting on debt is a reasonable left wing view?? Defaulting on debt is a reasonable approach to debts which you view as unpayable. Which is presumably how Posdemos views the Spanish government's current debts. Surely by that reckoning, anything is reasonable if you deem it to be so. Which seems a bit Nietzschean for your tastes. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Dec 2, 2014 22:00:32 GMT
Defaults are interesting. For every country that defaults and gets away with it, at least one will not. Renaissance Florence was ultimately dragged into tyranny as a direct result of its default. And fuck knows what Argentina is these days.
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Post by greenchristian on Dec 2, 2014 22:11:23 GMT
Defaulting on debt is a reasonable approach to debts which you view as unpayable. Which is presumably how Posdemos views the Spanish government's current debts. Surely by that reckoning, anything is reasonable if you deem it to be so. Which seems a bit Nietzschean for your tastes. Not exactly. Whilst it's probably possible to create a worldview in which any given action could be considered reasonable, that doesn't mean that said worldview is at all reasonable (see, for example, the racist views of the BNP). There are definitely cases where governments have accumulated unpayable debts. And given Spain's recent financial problems it's easy to see how somebody could reasonably believe that Spain is now in that category. (Caveat: I haven't actually looked at the figures). |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Dec 2, 2014 22:32:37 GMT
Surely by that reckoning, anything is reasonable if you deem it to be so. Which seems a bit Nietzschean for your tastes. Not exactly. Whilst it's probably possible to create a worldview in which any given action could be considered reasonable, that doesn't mean that said worldview is at all reasonable (see, for example, the racist views of the BNP). There are definitely cases where governments have accumulated unpayable debts. And given Spain's recent financial problems it's easy to see how somebody could reasonably believe that Spain is now in that category. (Caveat: I haven't actually looked at the figures). I entirely take your point, old chap. I was playing devil's advocate a bit. What I don't like is that the people of Spain are shying away from the actions of successive governments, of various shades, that brought them to this point, but which they happily accepted whilst the good times rolled. The same goes for the people who voted Labour in this country and then blamed them and did the "what, me guv? No, I blame Labour, never voted for them" pretence when the shit hit the fan in 2008. Or the people who voted Thatcher into power time and time again and now pretend they never did. Too many people who back groupings when the times are good and then do a runner when the inevitable bad times appear. The Spanish electorate voted PP and PSOE en masse and enjoyed the lowered taxes and massive spending, and massively . Now nobody wants to admit that either was unsustainable and overcooked. We're all political activists here, we've all had to take the hit when you're on the slide and you're unpopular- why should the voters not expect to be held to the same standard? |
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