Michael Collins is not Assassinated

[Devil Wincarnate]

What happens if Michael Collins is not assassinated?  Does the Free State avoid the insularity imposed by De Valera?  Does Collins force the North to honour its commitments to Catholics?

[Pete Whitehead]

Boogieeck wouldn't keep banging on about the assasisination of Michael collins

[The Bishop]

An utter and total loathing of de Valera is something boogs and I have in common

[Pete Whitehead]

Well I'm sure we all have that in common except for maybe that Irish Observer bloke.

[Deleted]

Oct 30, 2014 19:25:05 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

Well I'm sure we all have that in common except for maybe that Irish Observer bloke.

Lets not forget that Collins was on the sensible side of the Irish civil war though. Irish observer probably prefers the IRA side.

[john07]

Collins may have had the force of personality to bring about a early end to the civil war.

That could have resulted in a very different Ireland than the Cosgrove Goverment and Cumann na nGaedhael offered derided as the Irish Freak State. This may have weakened the de Valera opposition and prevented the nonsense that paralysed Ireland's development for 40 years.

[J.G.Harston]

Nov 18, 2014 13:27:52 GMT @boogieeck said:

Nobody on here has heard of Braemar, but for what it is worth, its an SNP held ward.

I used to deliver leaflets in Braemar! Still got the rounds sheets. 230 letterboxes.

[East Anglian Lefty]

Nov 18, 2014 13:27:52 GMT @boogieeck said:

Ireland is United and has Dominion status, it is a member of the Commonwealth, the Queen is nominally Head of State, but the oath requires no mention of her, and she has no part in Irish affairs, which does not prevent the remaining Unionist MPs from adding their own mention of her into the oath. The Unionist cause has not been wiped out among Dublin Protestants or the land owning Irish, but has been diminished in Ulster where many working class protestants prefer to vote Labour.

Recent referendum on republic seemed set to dispose of monarchy, but when it became apparent that it is to be a politicians president, appointed by insiders, the polls swung to retention of popular old biddy who holidays in Connacht.

Nobody on here has heard of Braemar, but for what it is worth, its an SNP held ward. Nobody on here except Boothroyd has heard of de Valera, but for what its worth, he got shot like a dog.

Or, more probably, because he only ever viewed partition as a stop-gap measure and because he needs to rebuild support, Collins restarts the campaign of assassinations and starts fomenting unrest in the north. The British government reacts to this by shelling Dublin from the sea, but they leave the bulk of the land warfare to the Ulster establishment, who are released from the leash. West Belfast and Bogside become bloodbaths, and even more southern Protestants are burnt and menaced out than happened in OTL. When the Unionist establishment demonstrate their incompetence, veterans from the mainland are mobilised. This rapidly proves unpopular and there are riots in many northern cities, especially those with a large Irish population. Dublin is retaken, but resistance doesn't stop and it's just not worth leaving tens of thousands of men to garrison the rural west. A settlement is eventually made, but not before the remaining three counties of Ulster have the population balance altered enough to create a Unionist majority across the entire province. Bitterness continues to fester and there's an increased chance of Ireland backing the Germans in WW2. And viewing Collins as a man we could do business with becomes another one in the long list of bad ideas Winston Churchill had.

On a lighter note, a bad Connacht whiskey is named De Valera instead.

[john07]

Nov 19, 2014 10:48:50 GMT East Anglian Lefty said:

Nov 18, 2014 13:27:52 GMT @boogieeck said:

Ireland is United and has Dominion status, it is a member of the Commonwealth, the Queen is nominally Head of State, but the oath requires no mention of her, and she has no part in Irish affairs, which does not prevent the remaining Unionist MPs from adding their own mention of her into the oath. The Unionist cause has not been wiped out among Dublin Protestants or the land owning Irish, but has been diminished in Ulster where many working class protestants prefer to vote Labour.

Recent referendum on republic seemed set to dispose of monarchy, but when it became apparent that it is to be a politicians president, appointed by insiders, the polls swung to retention of popular old biddy who holidays in Connacht.

Nobody on here has heard of Braemar, but for what it is worth, its an SNP held ward. Nobody on here except Boothroyd has heard of de Valera, but for what its worth, he got shot like a dog.

Or, more probably, because he only ever viewed partition as a stop-gap measure and because he needs to rebuild support, Collins restarts the campaign of assassinations and starts fomenting unrest in the north. The British government reacts to this by shelling Dublin from the sea, but they leave the bulk of the land warfare to the Ulster establishment, who are released from the leash. West Belfast and Bogside become bloodbaths, and even more southern Protestants are burnt and menaced out than happened in OTL. When the Unionist establishment demonstrate their incompetence, veterans from the mainland are mobilised. This rapidly proves unpopular and there are riots in many northern cities, especially those with a large Irish population. Dublin is retaken, but resistance doesn't stop and it's just not worth leaving tens of thousands of men to garrison the rural west. A settlement is eventually made, but not before the remaining three counties of Ulster have the population balance altered enough to create a Unionist majority across the entire province. Bitterness continues to fester and there's an increased chance of Ireland backing the Germans in WW2. And viewing Collins as a man we could do business with becomes another one in the long list of bad ideas Winston Churchill.

What makes you think that Collins would have been more difficult to deal with than Cosgrove or de Valera?

Collins was a pragmatist and a realist. The Irish Free State would have been in no position to wage war on the UK.

The assumption was that the Boundaries Commission would destroy the North as a viable entity. By the time this was found to be incorrect, the time had passed to take any meaningful action. The Civil War was all down to issues such as the Oath of Allegance and was bugger all to do with partition.

In any event many republicans ignored the Northern Question because they hadn't the political will to accommodate the North within their new state. They preferred to form a state for the largely Catholic South and adding one million Protestants from the North would entail making too many compromises.

[mrhell]

Recently I was listening to this Document programme www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01nl67c

A researcher has made the claim that the British army was directly involved in supporting Collins at the start of the Irish Civil War. Other people interviewed feel that this is unlikely, if it was true Collins would have known and it would have risked wrecking his credibility.

[john07]

Nov 19, 2014 18:02:46 GMT mrhell said:

Recently I was listening to this Document programme www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01nl67c

A researcher has made the claim that the British army was directly involved in supporting Collins at the start of the Irish Civil War. Other people interviewed feel that this is unlikely, if it was true Collins would have known and it would have risked wrecking his credibility.

The civil war started when anti treaty rebels occupied the four courts In Dublin. After a stand-off Collins ordered an attack and was assisted by British artilliary.

The British did provide military assistance to the pro treaty forces in the civil war.

[johnr]

I would imagine that the economic situation in the Free State wouldnt be nearly so bad, as de Valera seemed intent on impoverishing the people to pursue an unwinnable trade war with GB.

Also, would Collins have been so desperate to regain the Treaty Ports? If not, how would this have affected the War in the Atlantic?