john07
Labour & Co-operative
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Post by john07 on Oct 28, 2014 20:04:13 GMT
I was at King Tuts in Glasgow last Friday and was listening to The Men They Couldn't Hang belt out a rendition of the Ghosts of Cable Street. It set me thinking was to what the consequences would have been had Moseley disregarded Police advice and gone ahead with the March.
After what was perceived as a show of weakness by Moseley, the fortunes of the British Union of Fascists declined. Could it have been changed had the confrontation happened?
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 28, 2014 20:10:00 GMT
Hmmmm, excellent question....I suppose the big question there is, is there a way of having a general election held in 1938 or early 1939? That of course brings questions about how a Labour government deals with Hitler if it comes in- wasn't Attlee more in favour of an active approach in combating the Nazis through the mid-30s?
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 29, 2014 12:28:07 GMT
A related query is: what happens if the Action Francaise and Croix-du-Feu seize power on 6th February 1934?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2014 10:49:09 GMT
I don't think that fascism could ever have won mass support in Britain - it is fundamentally incompatible with our national character and temperament, and with our history. I have found people seem to be ambivalent towards Democracy, nobody seems to care too much that parliament has access to a number of options which in essence can suspend local and national democratic institutions when the PM and others deem it to their advantage. Not many took to the streets over internment, children in detention centres, the only act Parliament cannot suspend is the HRA and the majority on this forum would jump for joy if it was scrapped. |
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 30, 2014 12:58:30 GMT
I don't think that fascism could ever have won mass support in Britain - it is fundamentally incompatible with our national character and temperament, and with our history. I fear that it is a tad too sanguine. There was a very good book/film in the 60s called It Happened Here - yes IMO it could have (and let's not forget that in the Channel Islands, to at least a degree it *did*) |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 30, 2014 13:24:05 GMT
I don't think that fascism could ever have won mass support in Britain - it is fundamentally incompatible with our national character and temperament, and with our history. I fear that it is a tad too sanguine. There was a very good book/film in the 60s called It Happened Here - yes IMO it could have (and let's not forget that in the Channel Islands, to at least a degree it *did*) Indeed. The other thing is that not all the collaborative regimes in Europe were run by Fascists- indeed, in some the fascists were kept at arm's length. Plenty of other people from all parts of the political spectrum joined in. I forget who it was, but someone once described Vichy as the revenge of the rejected. And it was Laval I think who said that the Third Republic had "vomited up" the leading figures of Vichy. |
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neilm
Non-Aligned
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Post by neilm on Oct 30, 2014 13:35:56 GMT
Drifting slightly away from It Happened Here, isn't there actual German propaganda footage showing troops in an English town, pre made in case of a successful invasion?
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Post by Richard Cromwell on Oct 30, 2014 14:06:40 GMT
I don't think that fascism could ever have won mass support in Britain - it is fundamentally incompatible with our national character and temperament, and with our history. That's a very peculiar thing to say. Political movements suit themselves to the national character, as I'm sure you're aware. As Mussolini said, "fascism is not for export". The material I've read, and I've read a lot, coming directly from Mosley was very concerned with the British character. This is taken from 'We Fight For Freedom": "References to methods adopted, or supposed to be adopted, to control the Press in Fascist countries abroad are entirely beside the point because they ignore two all-important facts:- (1) That (except during the War) there has been no Government censorship of the Press in Britain since Milton's day and that nothing is more repugnant to our traditions or more unlikely to be adopted in this country, except in some very grave emergency, and then only within the narrowest limits consistent with the temporary needs of such emergencies; (2) That on the Continent, on the other hand, it has always been and is now, a common practice to impose, in one way or another, some form of State Control over the Press. An that this is so, whether the the Regime is democratic, Communist, Fascist or a non-Fascist dictatorship." Another, problem arise with your suggestion, also: doesn't it presuppose that, if Britain is (somehow) distinctly anti-fascist, there are countries which are (somehow) distinctly fascist. So, enlighten us; what country is made up of such hopeless pricks that cannot, and should not, ever have democracy? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2014 15:53:04 GMT
great song. the voice has gone, as has the anger and they have learned to play their instruments. They flew a Jacobin flag, as Tory stooges would do. Lions led by donkeys. I love this song, and belt it out occasionally (although the bridge is very tricky, I find). I first heard this on the John Peel show years ago; I switched on halfway through, was completely entranced, and unfortunately it was one of those once in a blue moon occasions when Peel didn't give the name of the band after the song. This was pre-internet days, so there was absolutely no way of finding it. A couple of years later, he played it again - and did the same thing! After two hearings, I knew most of the words (to the second half of the song...), so I usde to sing it to everyone I knew who liked music in the hope someone knew it. Eventually someone did  |
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
Posts: 15,780
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Post by john07 on Oct 30, 2014 16:38:49 GMT
I ........... was listening to The Men They Couldn't Hang belt out a rendition of the Ghosts of Cable Street. damn good . added it to my playlist they look old and comfortable. As do the audience. Actually, a bit like you and I King Tuts was totally sold out and the room was jam packed. The median age of the audience would have been 45-50 and they were bouncing around as through it was still 1987. I like this video with actual footage of Cable Street, |
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john07
Labour & Co-operative
Posts: 15,780
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Post by john07 on Oct 30, 2014 21:03:53 GMT
what the consequences would have been had Moseley disregarded Police advice and gone ahead with the March. After what was perceived as a show of weakness by Moseley, the fortunes of the British Union of Fascists declined. Could it have been changed had the confrontation happened? it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. Its like what if Griffin hadn't done QT, which was "perceived as a show of weakness by Griffin and the fortunes of the BNP declined" . The struggle between the race identity far left and the anti race identity far left gets a lot of attention because it is violent and because it fascinates and appals decent people. In reality, neither nor both combined amount to a hill of beans and never have. One thing it may have demonstrated was that Moseley wasn't ruthless enough to become a fascist dictator. Alternatively the fact that Moseley was able to attract only 3,000 marchers and faced 100,000 'demonstrators' may tell us something about the appeal of the BUF. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2014 21:15:42 GMT
I don't think that fascism could ever have won mass support in Britain - it is fundamentally incompatible with our national character and temperament, and with our history. if Britain is (somehow) distinctly anti-fascist, there are countries which are (somehow) distinctly fascist. So, enlighten us; what country is made up of such hopeless pricks France |
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Oct 31, 2014 11:31:11 GMT
An assertion that the NSDAP was really on the left is one of those disqualifying statements. Anyone who says it and means it disqualifies themselves as a serious commentator.
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right
Conservative
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Post by right on Oct 31, 2014 11:44:05 GMT
I gave some thought to my definition of race identity far left and anti race identity far left. I know that the Liberal Right such as myself characterising the Nazis as far left does meet with approval on the moderate left, despite the term National Socialist, I know also that with regard to economic polices, it is possible to characterise the Nazis as centre right. But I got to wondering, which Fascist movements would I regard as far right? I got as far as Pincohet, probably other Latin Americans, maybe Italy or Spain. with regard to the racist far right, I thought maybe Rhodes or the Raj? Spain was a coalition of various anti-left and anti-democratic forces, which included fascists. It had a stronger fascist component than your average caudillisto regime but was nonetheless not a fascist regime in the way that Italy and Germany were. Pinochet could only be qualified as a fascist in the sense of "I strongly dislike what you did". His economic policies were in no way corporatist, he allowed for alternative centres of power and gave up power after a referendum - which hardly suggests that he saw his coup as the start of some new dawn of humanity. The Peronist regime and movement had more fascist attributes than the Chilean military, but if you had to try and fit the Peronists on a left-right spectrum it would not be to the right. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 13:07:32 GMT
I was at King Tuts in Glasgow last Friday and was listening to The Men They Couldn't Hang belt out a rendition of the Ghosts of Cable Street. It set me thinking was to what the consequences would have been had Moseley disregarded Police advice and gone ahead with the March. After what was perceived as a show of weakness by Moseley, the fortunes of the British Union of Fascists declined. Could it have been changed had the confrontation happened? That sounds a bit too "great man" (or mediocre man in this instance) as a theory to have my sympathy. There could have been a successful fascist movement in Britain given the right combination of circumstances, or at least a successful demagogic hard-right populist movement with fascist characteristics. But I don't think it would have been Mosley or the BUF, who lacked the political skills and mass appeal to pull it off. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 31, 2014 13:34:53 GMT
An assertion that the NSDAP was really on the left is one of those disqualifying statements. Anyone who says it and means it disqualifies themselves as a serious commentator. Although it would be equally disingenuous to claim that there was not a part of the NSDAP which had distinct left-wing sympathies, given the effect on history that that wing's actions had in the Twenties and through to the "Querfront". |
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The Bishop
Labour
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Post by The Bishop on Oct 31, 2014 13:47:32 GMT
Only valid if the person who states that also acknowledges that said wing was liquidated by Herr Schicklegruber when it became inconvenient to him.
It is still possible to find "Strasserites" on the political fringe today, of course......
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 31, 2014 14:10:14 GMT
Only valid if the person who states that also acknowledges that said wing was liquidated by Herr Schicklegruber when it became inconvenient to him. It is still possible to find "Strasserites" on the political fringe today, of course...... Oh, indeed. But had they had the balls to do so, they could have stopped him from taking back control of the party when he was let out of chokey. And of course Goebbels traded in his lefty principles to get into bed with old Schickelgruber later on. Ultimately the "were they left, were they right" debate is caused by the fact that because 98% of people don't know what "syncretic" means. Wasn't Griffin a touter of Strasserism for a fair while? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2014 8:43:07 GMT
Any economic ideas they had were purely held to advance their evil social views. They are no socialists but no capitalists either.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 1, 2014 10:49:50 GMT
Any economic ideas they had were purely held to advance their evil social views. They are no socialists but no capitalists either. Well, it's an intriguing one. On the whole, I do agree- but at one point, it wasn't necessarily the case. The original left wing of the Nazis was fairly split between anti-Semites and outright racists and those who ignored it, preferring to focus on economics and seeing Jews as secondary enemies compared to the Junker class in Prussia- at one point, Goebbels even dismissed Hitler's anti-semitism as "peasant prejudice". This part of the left wing was slowly purged or, more disturbingly, embraced these ideologies in order to further their careers (including notably Goebbels himself). By 1930, yes, the economic ideas were entirely subordinate to the social/militaristic agenda, and the class-based ideology was almost dead, but not dead enough that Schleicher didn't try and exploit them to keep his own authoritarian regime in power. I think Richard Cromwell will be better informed than me. |
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