Brigg and Immingham

[Robert Waller]

A constituency name that pairs contrasting elements. Brigg is familiar enough. There was a time when this small market town, which in the far north of Lincolnshire, as its inhabitants will be quick to tell you, had a seat name to itself – one of the shortest, at five letters. Indeed it was rather a long time, from 1885 to February 1974. However for the second half of that period the electoral outcome was in fact decided by what became a much larger town, unrecognized in the title until 1974: the gritty, unglamorous steel metropolis with a notably unlovely name, Scunthorpe. Then from 1983 to 1997 Brigg was paired with Cleethorpes. However in 1997 Cleethorpes got a seat of its own and, as in a rustic dance ritual, Brigg yet again had a new partner – for the first time venturing into north Humberside (otherwise known as Yorkshire) to pair with the port of Goole on the river Ouse. Now that linkage has in turn been dissolved. Brigg is now to be joined with a novelty in constituency nomenclature, Immingham. Back south of the Humber again, Immingham is very different from Brigg: a port rather than a market town, on the coast rather than inland, very much a product of the 20th century, with its first dock opened in 1912, rather than quaintly historic, functional and even gritty rather than sleepy. One thing they do have in common, though. Both Brigg and Immingham have remained loyal to the Conservative party, even in their fairly disastrous local elections of the early 2020s; and the new constituency will be one of the safest Tory strongholds in Britain.

The new seat does of course include far more than the towns of Brigg and Immingham. After all, Brigg’ population in 2021 was only 5,600 (and it is rather amazing that it has maintained such a long run in constituency titles), and Immingham’s just under 10,000. What else is here? From the former Brigg & Goole it will have the ‘(Lincolnshire) Wolds’ villages between Brigg and Barton along the B1206/1204 from Wrawby through Worlaby, Binby, Saxby All Saints and Horkstow to South Ferriby. Another ward switched is Broughton & Appleby on the flatter land to the west of the Wolds along the arrow-straight B1207. This territory only accounts for the minority of the new seat (about 14,000), as indeed it is a minority (22%) of the present Brigg & Goole.

The majority of Brigg & Immingham will in fact consist of the majority (66%) of Cleethorpes. It will include from North Lincolnshire unitary authority Barton-upon-Humber (at 12,000 actually twice as large as Brigg, and a bit bigger than Immingham), the Ferry ward whose name reminds us of days before the Humber Bridge (opened 1981) and including Barrow-upon-Humber and New Holland, formerly the southern terminus of the Humber ferry for 161 years from 1820. There are also, from North East Lincolnshire, the suburbs of Humberston & New Waltham, Waltham and Scartho, which curl around even to reach the sea beyond Humberston. This is all very much part of the built up area of Grimsby-Cleethorpes, and is actually the largest concentration of population and hence voters in the whole seat. Scartho (which is essentially composed of modern owner occupied (83%) and mid-priced housing) is actually being moved from the Great Grimsby seat not from Cleethorpes. Overall, though, despite the new coupling of the eponymous town with Grimsby, Brigg & Immingham is in fact the true successor seat to Cleethorpes constituency.

Cleethorpes is a seat that once appeared marginal or even a bellwether, but has not done recently. It was won by Shona McIsaac for Labour in 1997, 2001 and 2005. However it is a classic example of New Labour reaching parts that Old Labour never could; and which have not been penetrated since. It might be pointed out that the pattern of General Election results in the United Kingdom since 1979, as here, for the Labour party has read: Lose – Lose – Lose – Lose – Blair - Blair – Blair – Lose – Lose - Lose- Lose. In December 2019 Martin Vickers won Cleethorpes for the Conservatives with a majority of 21,418 (or 46.5%, which made it the 32nd safest Conservative seat).

Like Cleethorpes, the new Brigg & Immingham will be socially and economically unexalted. Nearly as high a proportion of its workforce is in routine and semi-routine occupations (over 28% at the time of the most recent Census, 2021) as professional or managerial (29.6%). It ranks 2nd highest of all 575 new constituencies in England and Wales in the ‘lower supervisory and technical’ category. It is well below average for students and for residents possessing degree level qualifications. All in all, in the current era of voting behaviour, it looks very Conservative. The above mentioned characteristics are no longer a good guide to vulnerability to Labour. Moreover Brigg & Immingham was over 97% white in the 2011 census. It was 76% owner occupied, well into the top decile. In 2016 the Cleethorpes division voted around 69% to leave the EU, not far behind Grimsby’s 71%. In December 2019 the Labour share in Cleethorpes dropped 12.6%. As elsewhere up and down England’s east coast, Cleethorpes, Immingham and the like clearly wanted to distance themselves from the European entanglement.

The continuing Tory strength can be seen in local election results as well. The Brigg & Immingham constituency lies mainly within the unitary authority of North East Lincolnshire. In May 2023 in addition to Immingham ward, the Tories won Waltham and Humberston/ New Waltham, large suburban villages favoured by the more affluent who work in the Grimsby-Cleethorpes ‘conurbation’, by around two to one over Labour – and other parties were notable by their absence. The Liberal Democrats did finish second in 2022 in the Wolds ward, the most ‘inland’/furthest from the Humber part of the constituency, with its remote feeling and attractive villages, running from Healing in the north through Laceby and Barnoldby-le-Beck to Wold Newton at the southern end – and yes, there are hills in Lincolnshire.

In North Lincolnshire (also a unitary), the Tories easily returned all eleven councillors in the four wards included in Brigg & Immingham in the most recent local elections in May 2023, in Brigg & Wolds by nearly there to one over Labour. This not a strong ‘minor party’ area, with the Liberal Democrats and Greens polling 8.3% between them in December 2019 in Cleethorpes constituency - though this was at least an improvement on the wretched combined score of 3.3%, and fourth and fifth place behind UKIP, in 2017. Adding the votes cast in the wards to be in Brigg & Immingham in May 2023, they managed 13% between them. It is interesting that the Tories polled 55%, which is not only more than 25% ahead of Labour, but a very rare absolute majority at a time of dismal local election results across the country. The only seat post boundary changes where Adam Gray found a higher Tory percentage is Aldridge Brownhills (59%). The only other above 50% in May 2023 was Dartford (53%).

So, despite some history of local Labour victories in the seats (Brigg & Goole and Cleethorpes) that precede this one, Brigg & Immingham even now looks overwhelmingly Conservative - in fact, notionally safer in 2019 even than Cleethorpes was.

Given the characterful names of the present constituencies in this area, it seems somewhat pleasing to note that the Commission’s originally suggestion that this seat should have the functional name of ‘South Humber’ has been abandoned. Looking through the responses to the initial proposals, as well as the Cleethorpeites who did not want to be associated with their larger neighbour Grimsby, there were many that objected to the name South Humber, mostly on the long-established grounds that they did not believe there was such as a place as ‘Humberside’. The most common suggestion, which has now been accepted, was some variation on 'Brigg and Immingham' – which are, at least, very real places, even if situated in a little known corner of England.


2021 Census, new boundaries

Age 65+ 24.8% 83/575
Owner occupied 76.2% 39/575
Private rented 14.3% 470/575
Social rented 9.5% 533/575
White 97.2% 60/575
Black 0.3% 499/575
Asian 1.3% 477/575
Managerial & professional 29.6% 370/575
Lower supervisory 8.5% 2/575
Routine & Semi-routine 28.1% 129/575
Degree level 26.1% 465/575
No qualifications 20.0% 194/575
Students 4.6% 484/575




General Election 2019: Cleethorpes

Party Candidate Votes % ±%
Conservative Martin Vickers 31,969 69.0 +11.9
Labour Ros James 10,551 22.8 -12.6
Liberal Democrats Roy Horobin 2,535 5.5 +3.2
Green Jodi Shanahan 1,284 2.8 +1.8

C Majority 21,418 46.2 +24.5

Turnout 46,339 62.9 -2.6

Conservative hold

Swing +12.25 to C from Lab




Boundary Changes
Brigg and Immingham will consist of
65.9% of Cleethorpes
21.7% of Brigg & Goole
14.7% of Great Grimsby

Map
boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/review2023/9bc0b2ea-7915-4997-9d4a-3e313c0ceb51/yorkshire-and-the-humber/Yorkshire%20and%20the%20Humber%20Region_497_Brigg%20and%20Immingham_Landscape.pdf


2019 Notional results on new boundaries - Rallings & Thrasher

Con	33989	71.9%
Lab	9545	20.2%
LD	2067	4.4%
Brexit	1315	2.8%
Green	329	0.8%
Con Majority	24444	51.7%

[greenhert]

Sept 22, 2023 19:40:44 GMT Robert Waller said:

A constituency name that pairs contrasting elements. Brigg is familiar enough. There was a time when this small market town, which in the far north of Lincolnshire, as its inhabitants will be quick to tell you, had a seat name to itself – one of the shortest, at five letters. Indeed it was rather a long time, from 1885 to February 1974. However for the second half of that period the electoral outcome was in fact decided by what became a much larger town, unrecognized in the title: the gritty, unglamorous steel metropolis with a notably unlovely name, Scunthorpe. Then from 1974 to 1997 Brigg was paired with Cleethorpes. However in 1997 Cleethorpes got a seat of its own and, as in a rustic dance ritual, Brigg yet again had a new partner – for the first time venturing into north Humberside (otherwise known as Yorkshire) to pair with the port of Goole on the river Ouse. Now that linkage has in turn been dissolved. Brigg is now to be joined with a novelty in constituency nomenclature, Immingham. Back south of the Humber again, Immingham is very different from Brigg: a port rather than a market town, on the coast rather than inland, very much a product of the 20th century, with its first dock opened in 1912, rather than quaintly historic, functional and even gritty rather than sleepy. One thing they do have in common, though. Both Brigg and Immingham have remained loyal to the Conservative party, even in their fairly disastrous local elections of the early 2020s; and the new constituency will be one of the safest Tory strongholds in Britain.

The new seat does of course include far more than the towns of Brigg and Immingham. After all, Brigg’ population in 2021 was only 5,600 (and it is rather amazing that it has maintained such a long run in constituency titles), and Immingham’s just under 10,000. What else is here? From the former Brigg & Goole it will have the ‘(Lincolnshire) Wolds’ villages between Brigg and Barton along the B1206/1204 from Wrawby through Worlaby, Binby, Saxby All Saints and Horkstow to South Ferriby. Another ward switched is Broughton & Appleby on the flatter land to the west of the Wolds along the arrow-straight B1207. This territory only accounts for the minority of the new seat (about 14,000), as indeed it is a minority (22%) of the present Brigg & Goole.

The majority of Brigg & Immingham will in fact consist of the majority (66%) of Cleethorpes. It will include from North Lincolnshire unitary authority Barton-upon-Humber (at 12,000 actually twice as large as Brigg, and a bit bigger than Immingham), the Ferry ward whose name reminds us of days before the Humber Bridge (opened 1981) and including Barrow-upon-Humber and New Holland, formerly the southern terminus of the Humber ferry for 161 years from 1820. There are also, from North East Lincolnshire, the suburbs of Humberston & New Waltham, Waltham and Scartho, which curl around even to reach the sea beyond Humberston. This is all very much part of the built up area of Grimsby-Cleethorpes, and is actually the largest concentration of population and hence voters in the whole seat. Scartho (which is essentially composed of modern owner occupied (83%) and mid-priced housing) is actually being moved from the Great Grimsby seat not from Cleethorpes. Overall, though, despite the new coupling of the eponymous town with Grimsby, Brigg & Immingham is in fact the true successor seat to Cleethorpes constituency.

Cleethorpes is a seat that once appeared marginal or even a bellwether, but has not done recently. It was won by Shona McIsaac for Labour in 1997, 2001 and 2005. However it is a classic example of New Labour reaching parts that Old Labour never could; and which have not been penetrated since. It might be pointed out that the pattern of General Election results in the United Kingdom since 1979, as here, for the Labour party has read: Lose – Lose – Lose – Lose – Blair - Blair – Blair – Lose – Lose - Lose- Lose. In December 2019 Martin Vickers won Cleethorpes for the Conservatives with a majority of 21,418 (or 46.5%, which made it the 32nd safest Conservative seat).

Like Cleethorpes, the new Brigg & Immingham will be socially and economically unexalted. Nearly as high a proportion of its workforce is in routine and semi-routine occupations (over 28% at the time of the most recent Census, 2021) as professional or managerial (29.6%). It ranks 2nd highest of all 575 new constituencies in England and Wales in the ‘lower supervisory and technical’ category. It is well below average for students and for residents possessing degree level qualifications. All in all, in the current era of voting behaviour, it looks very Conservative. The above mentioned characteristics are no longer a good guide to vulnerability to Labour. Moreover Brigg & Immingham was over 97% white in the 2011 census. It was 76% owner occupied, well into the top decile. In 2016 the Cleethorpes division voted around 69% to leave the EU, not far behind Grimsby’s 71%. In December 2019 the Labour share in Cleethorpes dropped 12.6%. As elsewhere up and down England’s east coast, Cleethorpes, Immingham and the like clearly wanted to distance themselves from the European entanglement.

The continuing Tory strength can be seen in local election results as well. The Brigg & Immingham constituency lies mainly within the unitary authority of North East Lincolnshire. In May 2023 in addition to Immingham ward, the Tories won Waltham and Humberston/ New Waltham, large suburban villages favoured by the more affluent who work in the Grimsby-Cleethorpes ‘conurbation’, by around two to one over Labour – and other parties were notable by their absence. The Liberal Democrats did finish second in 2022 in the Wolds ward, the most ‘inland’/furthest from the Humber part of the constituency, with its remote feeling and attractive villages, running from Healing in the north through Laceby and Barnoldby-le-Beck to Wold Newton at the southern end – and yes, there are hills in Lincolnshire.

In North Lincolnshire (also a unitary), the Tories easily returned all eleven councillors in the four wards included in Brigg & Immingham in the most recent local elections in May 2023, in Brigg & Wolds by nearly there to one over Labour. This not a strong ‘minor party’ area, with the Liberal Democrats and Greens polling 8.3% between them in December 2019 in Cleethorpes constituency - though this was at least an improvement on the wretched combined score of 3.3%, and fourth and fifth place behind UKIP, in 2017. Adding the votes cast in the wards to be in Brigg & Immingham in May 2023, they managed 13% between them. It is interesting that the Tories polled 55%, which is not only more than 25% ahead of Labour, but a very rare absolute majority at a time of dismal local election results across the country. The only seat post boundary changes where Adam Gray found a higher Tory percentage is Aldridge Brownhills (59%). The only other above 50% in May 2023 was Dartford (53%).

So, despite some history of local Labour victories in the seats (Brigg & Goole and Cleethorpes) that precede this one, Brigg & Immingham even now looks overwhelmingly Conservative - in fact, notionally safer in 2019 even than Cleethorpes was.

Given the characterful names of the present constituencies in this area, it seems somewhat pleasing to note that the Commission’s originally suggestion that this seat should have the functional name of ‘South Humber’ has been abandoned. Looking through the responses to the initial proposals, as well as the Cleethorpeites who did not want to be associated with their larger neighbour Grimsby, there were many that objected to the name South Humber, mostly on the long-established grounds that they did not believe there was such as a place as ‘Humberside’. The most common suggestion, which has now been accepted, was some variation on 'Brigg and Immingham' – which are, at least, very real places, even if situated in a little known corner of England.


2021 Census, new boundaries

Age 65+ 24.8% 83/575
Owner occupied 76.2% 39/575
Private rented 14.3% 470/575
Social rented 9.5% 533/575
White 97.2% 60/575
Black 0.3% 499/575
Asian 1.3% 477/575
Managerial & professional 29.6% 370/575
Lower supervisory 8.5% 2/575
Routine & Semi-routine 28.1% 129/575
Degree level 26.1% 465/575
No qualifications 20.0% 194/575
Students 4.6% 484/575




General Election 2019: Cleethorpes

Party Candidate Votes % ±%
Conservative Martin Vickers 31,969 69.0 +11.9
Labour Ros James 10,551 22.8 -12.6
Liberal Democrats Roy Horobin 2,535 5.5 +3.2
Green Jodi Shanahan 1,284 2.8 +1.8

C Majority 21,418 46.2 +24.5

Turnout 46,339 62.9 -2.6

Conservative hold

Swing +12.25 to C from Lab




Boundary Changes
Brigg and Immingham will consist of
65.9% of Cleethorpes
21.7% of Brigg & Goole
14.7% of Great Grimsby

Map
boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/review2023/9bc0b2ea-7915-4997-9d4a-3e313c0ceb51/yorkshire-and-the-humber/Yorkshire%20and%20the%20Humber%20Region_497_Brigg%20and%20Immingham_Landscape.pdf

Dec 19, 2022 10:41:38 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

2019 Notional results on new boundaries - Brigg & Immingham

Con	32706	71.8%
Lab	9158	20.1%
LD	2134	4.7%
BxP	1133	2.5%
Grn	403	0.9%
Oth	26	0.1%
Majority	23548	51.7%

Brigg was paired with Cleethorpes from 1983 to 1997, not 1974 to 1997. Before 1983 Cleethorpes was part of the now defunct Louth constituency. The change is notable because it resulted from the (quite frankly idiotic) creation of Humberside and because it resulted in the deselection of Louth's Conservative MP, Michael Brotherton, although he brought most of it on himself.

[johnloony]

Sept 22, 2023 19:40:44 GMT Robert Waller said:

A constituency name that pairs contrasting elements. Brigg is familiar enough. There was a time when this small market town, which in the far north of Lincolnshire, as its inhabitants will be quick to tell you, had a seat name to itself – one of the shortest, at five letters. Indeed it was rather a long time, from 1885 to February 1974. However for the second half of that period the electoral outcome was in fact decided by what became a much larger town, unrecognized in the title: the gritty, unglamorous steel metropolis with a notably unlovely name, Scunthorpe. Then from 1974 to 1997 Brigg was paired with Cleethorpes. However in 1997 Cleethorpes got a seat of its own and, as in a rustic dance ritual, Brigg yet again had a new partner – for the first time venturing into north Humberside (otherwise known as Yorkshire) to pair with the port of Goole on the river Ouse. Now that linkage has in turn been dissolved. Brigg is now to be joined with a novelty in constituency nomenclature, Immingham. Back south of the Humber again, Immingham is very different from Brigg: a port rather than a market town, on the coast rather than inland, very much a product of the 20th century, with its first dock opened in 1912, rather than quaintly historic, functional and even gritty rather than sleepy. One thing they do have in common, though. Both Brigg and Immingham have remained loyal to the Conservative party, even in their fairly disastrous local elections of the early 2020s; and the new constituency will be one of the safest Tory strongholds in Britain.

Immingham was mentioned in “Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy”. I remember that George Smiley and I were both wondering where it was, and I looked it up. Obviously if it had been included in a constituency name in the first place, I would have known already.

[batman]

Immingham is quite a well-known port, although it's a private one like Felixstowe and not as well-known.

[The Bishop]

This must be a contender for the seat that has swung most to the Tories since 1997.

[Sibboleth]

Who has a love affair in Immingham? Where is Immingham anyway?

[carlton43]

Sept 23, 2023 12:00:41 GMT Sibboleth said:

Who has a love affair in Immingham? Where is Immingham anyway?

The extreme left-hand end (West) of Grimsby and a long straggle of docks and loading bays adjacent to marsh and flatlands.  Lots of rail and siding and handling for ores, coal, aggregate, timber and liquids.  Odd but compelling area out of time and place.

[yellowperil]

Sept 23, 2023 12:00:41 GMT Sibboleth said:

Who has a love affair in Immingham? Where is Immingham anyway?

On the first question, which I am sure was rhetorical (otherwise it's a tad intrusive), I am equally sure there would be some. Love affairs don't depend on geography, I would guess, or not entirely at least. Venice, say might be a better milieu for love than Immingham, though there are bits of Venice looking very similar to Immingham. On the second question I reckon Immingham is part of greater Grimsby, at least as much as Cleethorpes is, Ah there, Cleethorpes, is that a place for a love affair?  

[batman]

of course, the fine sea air, the promenade, who wouldn't?

[gwynthegriff]

Sept 23, 2023 11:02:09 GMT batman said:

Immingham is quite a well-known port, although it's a private one like Felixstowe and not as well-known.

Most railway enthusiasts would be aware of Immingham.

As would tramway enthusiasts.

[johnloony]

Sept 23, 2023 12:28:05 GMT yellowperil said:

Sept 23, 2023 12:00:41 GMT Sibboleth said:

Who has a love affair in Immingham? Where is Immingham anyway?

On the first question, which I am sure was rhetorical (otherwise it's a tad intrusive), I am equally sure there would be some. Love affairs don't depend on geography, I would guess, or not entirely at least. Venice, say might be a better milieu for love than Immingham, though there are bits of Venice looking very similar to Immingham. On the second question I reckon Immingham is part of greater Grimsby, at least as much as Cleethorpes is, Ah there, Cleethorpes, is that a place for a love affair?  

Sibboleth wrote:

Who has a love affair in Immingham? Where is Immingham anyway?

but what he meant to write was:

“Who has a love affair in Immingham? Where is Immingham anyway?”

In other words, he was quoting George Smiley - it was Smiley asking the questions, not anybody in this forum. The answer, incidentally, was his wife Ann

He unlocked the door, pushed it open and felt the midday mail slithering over the carpet.
What was due? He wondered. German Life and Letters? Philology? Philology, he decided; it was already overdue. Putting on the hall light, he stooped and peered through his post. One ‘account rendered’ from his tailor for a suit he had not ordered, but which he suspected, was one of those presently adorning, Ann’s lover; one bill from a garage in Henley for her petrol (what, pray, were they doing in Henley, broke, on the ninth of October?); One letter from the bank regarding a local cashing facility in favour of the Lady Ann Smiley at a branch of the Midland bank in Immingham.
And what the devil, he demanded of this document, are they doing in Immingham? Who ever had a love affair in Immingham, for goodness’ sake? Where was Immingham? He was still pondering the question when his gaze fell upon an unfamiliar umbrella in the stand, a silk one with a stitched leather handle and a gold ring with no initials.

[carlton43]

Sept 23, 2023 12:28:05 GMT yellowperil said:

Sept 23, 2023 12:00:41 GMT Sibboleth said:

Who has a love affair in Immingham? Where is Immingham anyway?

On the first question, which I am sure was rhetorical (otherwise it's a tad intrusive), I am equally sure there would be some. Love affairs don't depend on geography, I would guess, or not entirely at least. Venice, say might be a better milieu for love than Immingham, though there are bits of Venice looking very similar to Immingham. On the second question I reckon Immingham is part of greater Grimsby, at least as much as Cleethorpes is, Ah there, Cleethorpes, is that a place for a love affair?  

I happen by the vagaries of chance to know both Florence and Immingham rather well and am prepared to assert that there is absolutely no resemblance of any part of Forence to any part of Immingham, not even on a wet Sunday in November.

[yellowperil]

Sept 23, 2023 13:08:53 GMT johnloony said:

Sept 23, 2023 12:28:05 GMT yellowperil said:

On the first question, which I am sure was rhetorical (otherwise it's a tad intrusive), I am equally sure there would be some. Love affairs don't depend on geography, I would guess, or not entirely at least. Venice, say might be a better milieu for love than Immingham, though there are bits of Venice looking very similar to Immingham. On the second question I reckon Immingham is part of greater Grimsby, at least as much as Cleethorpes is, Ah there, Cleethorpes, is that a place for a love affair?  

Sibboleth wrote:

Who has a love affair in Immingham? Where is Immingham anyway?

but what he meant to write was:

“Who has a love affair in Immingham? Where is Immingham anyway?”

In other words, he was quoting George Smiley - it was Smiley asking the questions, not anybody in this forum. The answer, incidentally, was his wife Ann

He unlocked the door, pushed it open and felt the midday mail slithering over the carpet.
What was due? He wondered. German Life and Letters? Philology? Philology, he decided; it was already overdue. Putting on the hall light, he stooped and peered through his post. One ‘account rendered’ from his tailor for a suit he had not ordered, but which he suspected, was one of those presently adorning, Ann’s lover; one bill from a garage in Henley for her petrol (what, pray, were they doing in Henley, broke, on the ninth of October?); One letter from the bank regarding a local cashing facility in favour of the Lady Ann Smiley at a branch of the Midland bank in Immingham.
And what the devil, he demanded of this document, are they doing in Immingham? Who ever had a love affair in Immingham, for goodness’ sake? Where was Immingham? He was still pondering the question when his gaze fell upon an unfamiliar umbrella in the stand, a silk one with a stitched leather handle and a gold ring with no initials.

Thank you for that. I didn't recognise the quote (I've not actually read much of the Smiley books) so thought the question was original rather than quoted. I now understand.

[yellowperil]

Sept 23, 2023 13:38:49 GMT carlton43 said:

Sept 23, 2023 12:28:05 GMT yellowperil said:

On the first question, which I am sure was rhetorical (otherwise it's a tad intrusive), I am equally sure there would be some. Love affairs don't depend on geography, I would guess, or not entirely at least. Venice, say might be a better milieu for love than Immingham, though there are bits of Venice looking very similar to Immingham. On the second question I reckon Immingham is part of greater Grimsby, at least as much as Cleethorpes is, Ah there, Cleethorpes, is that a place for a love affair?  

I happen by the vagaries of chance to know both Florence and Immingham rather well and am prepared to assert that there is absolutely no resemblance of any part of Forence to any part of Immingham, not even on a wet Sunday in November.

If you read the passage you are quoting you will see there is certainly no mention of Florence, and I would agree that would be an unlikely pairing. However the reference was to Venice and taking the wider interpretation of what is inthe greater Venice, then there are bits not altogether different  from  Immingham. La Serenissima they are most certainly not. I think you may have been  confused by an earlier discussion about Florence on a different thread.  Venice like Florence is best visited in the depths of winter I think and in each case among many other visits I have spent the new year celebration there. Very atmospheric but you do need your wellies as all the streets may be under water- and no I don't mean the ones that are actually canals!

[carlton43]

Sept 23, 2023 14:44:41 GMT yellowperil said:

Sept 23, 2023 13:38:49 GMT carlton43 said:

I happen by the vagaries of chance to know both Florence and Immingham rather well and am prepared to assert that there is absolutely no resemblance of any part of Forence to any part of Immingham, not even on a wet Sunday in November.

If you read the passage you are quoting you will see there is certainly no mention of Florence, and I would agree that would be an unlikely pairing. However the reference was to Venice and taking the wider interpretation of what is inthe greater Venice, then there are bits not altogether different  from  Immingham. La Serenissima they are most certainly not. I think you may have been  confused by an earlier discussion about Florence on a different thread.  Venice like Florence is best visited in the depths of winter I think and in each case among many other visits I have spent the new year celebration there. Very atmospheric but you do need your wellies as all the streets may be under water- and no I don't mean the ones that are actually canals!

Yes, indeed, I did permit myself to get confused and that was not your fault, so apologies.

I also know Venice quite well including the lesser known seedy areas.  It has the water and the sea and that is about it!  The built environment and the ambience are shall we just say   different?

[nyx]

Cleethorpes becoming Brigg and Immingham after the town of Cleethorpes itself is removed reminds me of Workington becoming Penrith and Solway after Workington itself was removed. Are there any other examples like this, in either the current review or previous ones, where a constituency has had to change name because its namesake town was moved out of it in the review?

[bjornhattan]

Sept 23, 2023 15:43:23 GMT nyx said:

Cleethorpes becoming Brigg and Immingham after the town of Cleethorpes itself is removed reminds me of Workington becoming Penrith and Solway after Workington itself was removed. Are there any other examples like this, in either the current review or previous ones, where a constituency has had to change name because its namesake town was moved out of it in the review?

There are various - a similar case (albeit involving suburbs rather than towns) would be Plymouth Devonport becoming Plymouth Moor View in 2010.

[Pete Whitehead]

Sept 23, 2023 15:43:23 GMT nyx said:

Cleethorpes becoming Brigg and Immingham after the town of Cleethorpes itself is removed reminds me of Workington becoming Penrith and Solway after Workington itself was removed. Are there any other examples like this, in either the current review or previous ones, where a constituency has had to change name because its namesake town was moved out of it in the review?

Sleaford & North Hykeham when created was basically the Grantham constituency less the town of Grantham

[batman]

and the same with Faversham. The present Sittingbourne & Sheppey is basically the old Faversham minus the town of Faversham itself.

[gwynthegriff]

Sept 23, 2023 15:43:23 GMT nyx said:

Cleethorpes becoming Brigg and Immingham after the town of Cleethorpes itself is removed reminds me of Workington becoming Penrith and Solway after Workington itself was removed. Are there any other examples like this, in either the current review or previous ones, where a constituency has had to change name because its namesake town was moved out of it in the review?

The former Nantwich constituency didn't make a lot of sense after Nantwich became part of the Crewe & Nantwich constituency (mid-1970s?).