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Post by batman on Sept 18, 2024 20:20:44 GMT
And perhaps finally, is there actually a Waltham Forest now? There isn't really a place called Redbridge either. There's an underground station of that name on the boundary between Woodford and Ilford, but the anonymous name of the station reflects that isn't in any recognised district. The station was named after Redbridge Lane, which ran/runs to the old bridge over the Roding, but no-one ever said they lived in 'Redbridge' prior to the creation of the borough. that's interesting & isn't something I'd heard before. Although I lived in East Ham for several years, I never used Redbridge tube station and don't know its surrounding area well, although I used to know central Ilford & its surrounds pretty well at that time. My Master Atlas of Greater London certainly does think that there is an area known as Redbridge, but they think it's south of the A12, which I guess would be in the Cranbrook ward - which my cousin Arnold represented for the Tories for a decade or so before his death. Perhaps locally, however, the area isn't widely known as Redbridge; it wouldn't be the first time that the Master Atlas has claimed that areas exist which are not generally referred to as such by the people who live in them. Near where I live they claim the existence of an area called North Sheen, but hardly anyone says they live there, not even people who live virtually next door to the railway station of that name - they're almost invariably going to say they live in Richmond, which indeed they do. I have very occasionally used it to describe the area immediately north of the Lower Richmond Road, which isn't quite sure whether it's in Richmond or Kew, but it's not something I generally hear other people doing.
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Post by finsobruce on Sept 18, 2024 20:51:36 GMT
Pete is right. It was just Newham South. Ealing Acton wasn't just a borough prefix, arguably, it did contain a very large segment of the Ealing community as well as all of Acton within the LB Ealing. It was somewhat similar to the present Ealing Central & Acton though smaller. Newham is the clunkiest London borough name as there is no district called that at all, which is unique. At least there is a Havering-atte-Bower in Havering, small though it is. The spelling Haringey is weird as the district is always spelt Harringay nowadays, so it could be argued that it is almost on a par with Newham as a borough name. Well Newham had a certain logic to it as there was East Ham and West Ham and then (1964) there was a Newham. We can, as they say, see what they did there even though we might decry it.
The spelling Haringey is no weirder than Harringay, and both are predated by another spelling - Haringay. They are all just different ways of 'spelling' the word, which is effectively the same one as Hornsey, which itself was spelt Harnsey at one point. There is a long and tortured history to this which goes back centuries , but both the ey and double rr ay spelling seem to me to have become predominant in the eighteenth andnineteenth century due to building projects, something more common in London than romantics might image. A group of houses offered for sale called Haringey Park (1854) and a grand dwelling called Harringay House (1792).
The local historian Stephen Madge worked out that over the centuries there have been no less than 162 variants of the spelling. The original Saxon 'owner' of the land was probably called Hering, the once popular idea that the name meant 'field of hares' is now generally discounted.
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Post by timrollpickering on Sept 18, 2024 22:52:26 GMT
Well Newham had a certain logic to it as there was East Ham and West Ham and then (1964) there was a Newham. We can, as they say, see what they did there even though we might decry it. Originally it was Hamme and then the Manor of Ham. This was just a reunification.
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Post by sanders on Sept 19, 2024 4:44:43 GMT
Well Newham had a certain logic to it as there was East Ham and West Ham and then (1964) there was a Newham. We can, as they say, see what they did there even though we might decry it. Originally it was Hamme and then the Manor of Ham. This was just a reunification. Hence Manor Park I would guess?
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Post by timrollpickering on Sept 19, 2024 9:52:15 GMT
Originally it was Hamme and then the Manor of Ham. This was just a reunification. Hence Manor Park I would guess? Manor Park is a 19th century name for a development recalling the Manor House and farm of the Manor of Little Ilford.
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Post by batman on Sept 19, 2024 10:31:59 GMT
Pete is right. It was just Newham South. Ealing Acton wasn't just a borough prefix, arguably, it did contain a very large segment of the Ealing community as well as all of Acton within the LB Ealing. It was somewhat similar to the present Ealing Central & Acton though smaller. Newham is the clunkiest London borough name as there is no district called that at all, which is unique. At least there is a Havering-atte-Bower in Havering, small though it is. The spelling Haringey is weird as the district is always spelt Harringay nowadays, so it could be argued that it is almost on a par with Newham as a borough name. Well Newham had a certain logic to it as there was East Ham and West Ham and then (1964) there was a Newham. We can, as they say, see what they did there even though we might decry it.
The spelling Haringey is no weirder than Harringay, and both are predated by another spelling - Haringay. They are all just different ways of 'spelling' the word, which is effectively the same one as Hornsey, which itself was spelt Harnsey at one point. There is a long and tortured history to this which goes back centuries , but both the ey and double rr ay spelling seem to me to have become predominant in the eighteenth andnineteenth century due to building projects, something more common in London than romantics might image. A group of houses offered for sale called Haringey Park (1854) and a grand dwelling called Harringay House (1792).
The local historian Stephen Madge worked out that over the centuries there have been no less than 162 variants of the spelling. The original Saxon 'owner' of the land was probably called Hering, the once popular idea that the name meant 'field of hares' is now generally discounted.
I have indeed read a dictionary of English place-names, and was surprised to find that Hornsey & Harringay had exactly the same derivation as you say.
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YL
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Either Labour leaning or Lib Dem leaning but not sure which
Posts: 4,905
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Post by YL on Sept 21, 2024 7:52:31 GMT
Map of the 1950 constituencies in the London area. You can see that the OS included borough prefixes on the seats in Wandsworth (then including part of what is now Lambeth), Lambeth and Camberwell: Wandsworth Putney, Lambeth Brixton, Camberwell Dulwich. Other boroughs were either too small to be divided or had compass points. As to the borough names, I'm sure this series of blogs on the names has been mentioned on here before. "Newham" was a name agreed quickly and doesn't get that much discussion, though there is the list of jocular alternatives such as "Hamsandwich".
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redtony
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Post by redtony on Sept 27, 2024 20:54:01 GMT
M25 to be the GLC borders
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Post by sanders on Sept 28, 2024 3:31:43 GMT
M25 to be the GLC borders Ha ha - more competitive mayoral elections!
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Post by batman on Sept 28, 2024 8:41:09 GMT
it is the border at one or two locations, though mostly it lies entirely outside the GLA area. For the purposes of my work, when I ask respondents whether they were born in London the criterion is actually within (what is now) the M25, so if they were born in the hospital in Chertsey (as many are) it's just outside........
Even if the M25 were the border, parts of the London Underground would still be outside London, on the Metropolitan & Central lines.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Sept 28, 2024 9:08:10 GMT
I'm London born on that criteria which I don't really consider myself to be, although we had a London phone number and were policed by the Met when I was growing up. It annoys me when people play the M25 is London card - I got fleeced by a South African vet in Watford who said basically - 'well we're in London we can charge what we like more or less' - I was like it's not fucking London and he came up with this spurious shite about the M25. Some arrogant South African prick trying to tell me what's London and what isn't I don't think the concept of the area which has existed for six decades now (with only minor boundary modifications since) and which has been governed by first the GLC and latterly the GLA is all that difficult to grasp.
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Post by batman on Sept 28, 2024 9:31:51 GMT
It is a survey about transport, so I guess the question is geared to whether the respondent was born in an area with easy access to London buses, for which the M25 is a reasonable enough dividing line. I agree that if you were born in say Watford or Staines, and said "I was born in London", it would essentially be nonsense. I think you were born in the London Borough of Hillingdon, so that's a rather greyer area perhaps, although I would never condemn someone for saying they don't regard themselves as London-born if they were born in a place that doesn't have a specifically London postcode - none of that borough has one of those, only a tiny sliver of neighbouring Harrow has (near Queensbury station), and most of also-neighbouring Hounslow doesn't either. I live in such a place too, but as I was born in Queen Charlotte's Hospital which was then in Hammersmith, London W6, I definitely am London-born.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Sept 28, 2024 9:48:48 GMT
It is a survey about transport, so I guess the question is geared to whether the respondent was born in an area with easy access to London buses, for which the M25 is a reasonable enough dividing line. I agree that if you were born in say Watford or Staines, and said "I was born in London", it would essentially be nonsense. I think you were born in the London Borough of Hillingdon, so that's a rather greyer area perhaps, although I would never condemn someone for saying they don't regard themselves as London-born if they were born in a place that doesn't have a specifically London postcode - none of that borough has one of those, only a tiny sliver of neighbouring Harrow has (near Queensbury station), and most of also-neighbouring Hounslow doesn't either. I live in such a place too, but as I was born in Queen Charlotte's Hospital which was then in Hammersmith, London W6, I definitely am London-born. No I was born (and grew up) in Bushey (then an Urban District). My daughter was born in Hillingdon.
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Post by batman on Sept 28, 2024 10:05:28 GMT
oh in that case you're definitely not born in London. My son couldn't be more London-born - he was born in the London Hospital. That perhaps is part of the complex reason why he supports West Ham.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Sept 28, 2024 10:19:20 GMT
oh in that case you're definitely not born in London. My son couldn't be more London-born - he was born in the London Hospital. That perhaps is part of the complex reason why he supports West Ham. Maybe there is something in this. My eldest brother was born at Westminster hospital, though always lived in Bushey, and he was a Chelsea fan whereas the rest of us (Bushey born) tended to support Watford. He was also (still is) a big fan of Middlesex county cricket club (although there wasn't much of an option to support Hertfordshire I suppose in that case)
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Post by batman on Sept 28, 2024 10:40:51 GMT
He was resident in the London Borough of Newham at the time of his birth, but he moved out (obviously with us!) when he was only a few months old.
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