Greater London is created in 1974 not 1965

[greenhert]

What would the London Boroughs look like if they had been reformed by the Heath government alongside the rest of the UK's local government in 1974, and not 1965 as part of the Herbert Reforms (the same year, a Local Government Commission made some reforms to other county structures, such as merging Cambridgeshire and the Isle of Ely)?

[sirbenjamin]

There was less consultation in 1974 and a greater sense of 'this is how it's going to be so get used to it', so many of the proposed 1960s changes that were resisted at the time would've been forced through.

But many of these might've been reversed or changed again in the 1990s.

So I guess it's possible we might be talking about the former London Borough of Epsom or something similar.

Overall I can't see that much being different as it was only a few years later. If they waited until after the M25 opened there might well have been arguments made to make this the border.

[greenhert]

Jul 10, 2023 23:31:14 GMT sirbenjamin said:

There was less consultation in 1974 and a greater sense of 'this is how it's going to be so get used to it', so many of the proposed 1960s changes that were resisted at the time would've been forced through.

But many of these might've been reversed or changed again in the 1990s.

So I guess it's possible we might be talking about the former London Borough of Epsom or something similar.

Overall I can't see that much being different as it was only a few years later. If they waited until after the M25 opened there might well have been arguments made to make this the border.

This was a key problem with many other reforms of the 1970s, such as the Courts Act 1971 and the reorganisation of emergency services such that there are constabularies covering multiple counties (West Mercia Police has to cover 3!)

[sirbenjamin]

Jul 11, 2023 18:39:06 GMT greenhert said:

Jul 10, 2023 23:31:14 GMT sirbenjamin said:

There was less consultation in 1974 and a greater sense of 'this is how it's going to be so get used to it', so many of the proposed 1960s changes that were resisted at the time would've been forced through.

But many of these might've been reversed or changed again in the 1990s.

So I guess it's possible we might be talking about the former London Borough of Epsom or something similar.

Overall I can't see that much being different as it was only a few years later. If they waited until after the M25 opened there might well have been arguments made to make this the border.

This was a key problem with many other reforms of the 1970s, such as the Courts Act 1971 and the reorganisation of emergency services such that there are constabularies covering multiple counties (West Mercia Police has to cover 3!)

Certainly it was a decade when people were compliant and accepted stuff being foisted upon them - more than in the 60s that preceded and the 80s that followed.

Culturally, however, I think society has now generally reverted to this behaviour - at least when it comes to accepting PC/woke orthodoxy and not wanting to pipe up and challenge it, despite what one might instinctively feel within.

[michaelarden]

Jul 11, 2023 18:39:06 GMT greenhert said:

Jul 10, 2023 23:31:14 GMT sirbenjamin said:

There was less consultation in 1974 and a greater sense of 'this is how it's going to be so get used to it', so many of the proposed 1960s changes that were resisted at the time would've been forced through.

But many of these might've been reversed or changed again in the 1990s.

So I guess it's possible we might be talking about the former London Borough of Epsom or something similar.

Overall I can't see that much being different as it was only a few years later. If they waited until after the M25 opened there might well have been arguments made to make this the border.

This was a key problem with many other reforms of the 1970s, such as the Courts Act 1971 and the reorganisation of emergency services such that there are constabularies covering multiple counties (West Mercia Police has to cover 3!)

The Met Police's boundaries used to extend outside of the GLC/A area. As any map in the Sweeney shows.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Jul 12, 2023 21:17:09 GMT michaelarden said:

Jul 11, 2023 18:39:06 GMT greenhert said:

This was a key problem with many other reforms of the 1970s, such as the Courts Act 1971 and the reorganisation of emergency services such that there are constabularies covering multiple counties (West Mercia Police has to cover 3!)

The Met Police's boundaries used to extend outside of the GLC/A area. As any map in the Sweeney shows.

The Government wasn't certain what to do about this when the GLA was created. Even at the time of the White Paper 'A Mayor and Assembly for London' (Cm3897) in March 1998 the proposal was to retain the traditional boundary of the Metropolitan Police District, and create a Metropolitan Police Authority including representatives of districts outside the Greater London boundary. By the time the Greater London Authority Bill was published in December 1998, the proposal had changed and the areas of the Metropolitan Police District outside Greater London were transferred to Surrey, Essex, and Hertfordshire constabularies.

[eastmidlandsright]

Jul 11, 2023 18:39:06 GMT greenhert said:

Jul 10, 2023 23:31:14 GMT sirbenjamin said:

There was less consultation in 1974 and a greater sense of 'this is how it's going to be so get used to it', so many of the proposed 1960s changes that were resisted at the time would've been forced through.

But many of these might've been reversed or changed again in the 1990s.

So I guess it's possible we might be talking about the former London Borough of Epsom or something similar.

Overall I can't see that much being different as it was only a few years later. If they waited until after the M25 opened there might well have been arguments made to make this the border.

This was a key problem with many other reforms of the 1970s, such as the Courts Act 1971 and the reorganisation of emergency services such that there are constabularies covering multiple counties (West Mercia Police has to cover 3!)

You mean that a government led by Ted Heath was high handed, arrogant and impervious to reasoned criticism. I am shocked, shocked I tell you.

However on one of your specific points I see no reason why a police force covering multiple counties is necessarily a problem. Does Herefordshire really warrant its own police force?

[Chris from Brum]

Jul 12, 2023 23:34:44 GMT eastmidlandsright said:

Jul 11, 2023 18:39:06 GMT greenhert said:

This was a key problem with many other reforms of the 1970s, such as the Courts Act 1971 and the reorganisation of emergency services such that there are constabularies covering multiple counties (West Mercia Police has to cover 3!)

You mean that a government led by Ted Heath was high handed, arrogant and impervious to reasoned criticism. I am shocked, shocked I tell you.

However on one of your specific points I see no reason why a police force covering multiple counties is necessarily a problem. Does Herefordshire really warrant its own police force?

Herefordshire by itself is too small, and a combined force with Shropshire, which is also too small, would be fine. But from 1974 it was not a separate county, having been merged with Worcestershire, so the police force had to be based on the new boundaries. Hence the three county West Mercia force.

[YL]

In fact, as has been discussed on here before, there were changes in the composition of the Metropolitan Counties between the 1971 White Paper and the final boundaries. For example, Harrogate was originally to be in West Yorkshire, Dronfield in South Yorkshire and Glossop in Greater Manchester. So I think the supposition that pitchfork wielders on the outskirts of London would have been ignored by the Heath government is dubious.

[eastmidlandsright]

Jul 13, 2023 21:29:07 GMT YL said:

In fact, as has been discussed on here before, there were changes in the composition of the Metropolitan Counties between the 1971 White Paper and the final boundaries. For example, Harrogate was originally to be in West Yorkshire, Dronfield in South Yorkshire and Glossop in Greater Manchester. So I think the supposition that pitchfork wielders on the outskirts of London would have been ignored by the Heath government is dubious.

It is also probably safe to say that the wealthy outskirts of London had above average influence over a Conservative government. 

[wallington]

The modern day Greater London boundaries should be extended. I doubt it would be a popular idea, not sure it will ever happen, but personally I would support it.

[finsobruce]

Jul 19, 2023 18:09:30 GMT wallington said:

The modern day Greater London boundaries should be extended. I doubt it would be a popular idea, not sure it will ever happen, but personally I would support it.

If a government wanted to start a pointless , frustrating, time and money wasting 'consultation' exercise before inevitably backing down this one is permanently in the top three.

[londonseal80]

Jul 10, 2023 23:31:14 GMT sirbenjamin said:

There was less consultation in 1974 and a greater sense of 'this is how it's going to be so get used to it', so many of the proposed 1960s changes that were resisted at the time would've been forced through.

But many of these might've been reversed or changed again in the 1990s.

So I guess it's possible we might be talking about the former London Borough of Epsom or something similar.

Overall I can't see that much being different as it was only a few years later. If they waited until after the M25 opened there might well have been arguments made to make this the border.

Epsom feels like the natural edge of London, very similar to Upminster or Orpington (both of which are actually further from Central London than Epsom). There is no real change in the feel of the area when you cross the boundary from LB Sutton to Epsom and Ewell in fact it feels more a change when you pass the hospital and cross into Mole Valley in Ashtead. Chigwell is another area which feels like it is still the London suburbs rather than outside London, though it is mostly very different to Redbridge nowadays. It is perhaps what Redbridge felt like in the 1970s.

[sirbenjamin]

Aug 23, 2023 7:24:05 GMT londonseal80 said:

Jul 10, 2023 23:31:14 GMT sirbenjamin said:

There was less consultation in 1974 and a greater sense of 'this is how it's going to be so get used to it', so many of the proposed 1960s changes that were resisted at the time would've been forced through.

But many of these might've been reversed or changed again in the 1990s.

So I guess it's possible we might be talking about the former London Borough of Epsom or something similar.

Overall I can't see that much being different as it was only a few years later. If they waited until after the M25 opened there might well have been arguments made to make this the border.

Epsom feels like the natural edge of London, very similar to Upminster or Orpington (both of which are actually further from Central London than Epsom). There is no real change in the feel of the area when you cross the boundary from LB Sutton to Epsom and Ewell in fact it feels more a change when you pass the hospital and cross into Mole Valley in Ashtead. Chigwell is another area which feels like it is still the London suburbs rather than outside London, though it is mostly very different to Redbridge nowadays. It is perhaps what Redbridge felt like in the 1970s.

I sometimes wonder if people in the Epsom area still feel as strongly about the issue as they did in the early 1960s.

My gut feeling is that they probably do, but for different reasons, and other areas just outside the current Greater London boundary have likely 'caught up' with the sentiment and are more resistant now than a couple of generations ago.

Partly specific stuff like creeping ULEZ, but the general sense that London is 'another country' has definitely been increasing.

[Deleted]

London’s “another country” as old Surrey’s more ‘London’ bits got hived off, surely? How does Surrey differ if it kept Croydon, Kingston, Merton, Richmond proper, and Sutton?

[Sibboleth]

Odd thread. The present form of London government is infinitely less powerful than all previous versions.

[J.G.Harston]

Jul 13, 2023 21:29:07 GMT YL said:

In fact, as has been discussed on here before, there were changes in the composition of the Metropolitan Counties between the 1971 White Paper and the final boundaries. For example, Harrogate was originally to be in West Yorkshire, Dronfield in South Yorkshire and Glossop in Greater Manchester. So I think the supposition that pitchfork wielders on the outskirts of London would have been ignored by the Heath government is dubious.

Was there any chance of Wetherby being in North Yorkshire? It's crammed right in the corner of Leeds Met, the housing goes right ram bang up to the council border, it's miles'n'miles from Leeds proper, I can't see any sense in it not being in North Yorkshire.

[timrollpickering]

One side effect is how Royal Mail reacts to such changes.

In the real world postal address in London have never aligned to any political boundaries and the 1965 changes were not carried forward to addresses (apart from moving Potters Bar into Hertfordshire), with the reasons given being a shortage of funds plus the potential confusion of the LONDON postal town with a Greater London postal county.

By contrast in England (and Wales?) the 1974 changes were generally applied to postal addresses with the prominent exception of Greater Manchester (citing that it would be confusing to have Manchester as both a town and a county a la London), keeping Worcestershire and Herefordshire separate and partitioning Humberside on the grounds the county wasn't workable. (Plus loads of villages got their mail via a nearby town and in some cases the new boundaries meant they were now in different administrative counties.)

If Royal Mail had to face all these changes at once then they could have gone one of two ways. Either they might have chosen not to amend addresses, leading to much wider confusion about counties and opposition to county councils not found on postal addresses, or else London might have appeared on addresses across the capital. And much of how people approach these questions ultimately stems from their postal addresses.

[🏴‍☠️ Neath West 🏴‍☠️]

Jul 19, 2023 18:09:30 GMT wallington said:

The modern day Greater London boundaries should be extended. I doubt it would be a popular idea, not sure it will ever happen, but personally I would support it.

I'd sooner undo 1966. There's already the issue that Romford has a lot more in common with Southend than it does with Richmond. Greater London is too large and unmanageable, and its police force is a national liability. It should lose outlying areas to Essex, Kent, and Surrey, and Middlesex County Council should be reëstablished.

[J.G.Harston]

Sept 16, 2024 15:48:28 GMT 🏴‍☠️ Neath West 🏴‍☠️ said:

Jul 19, 2023 18:09:30 GMT wallington said:

The modern day Greater London boundaries should be extended. I doubt it would be a popular idea, not sure it will ever happen, but personally I would support it.

I'd sooner undo 1966. There's already the issue that Romford has a lot more in common with Southend than it does with Richmond. Greater London is too large and unmanageable, and its police force is a national liability. It should lose outlying areas to Essex, Kent, and Surrey, and Middlesex County Council should be reëstablished.

All the way to Blackwell?