Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 25, 2024 20:14:49 GMT
I don't agree about Rowling, obviously. For me trans people and trans issues are important. I don't agree what you have said about Israel, and Palestine is also important. There are different views - Stephen Sizer is an evangelical Christian but very opposed to Zionism. Steve Chalke was an evangelical and still a Christian - he supports trans people. Why do you think that those particular issues are important? Others - I support voluntary euthanasia, public transport, community policing...seems to be a lot of trans issues and Israel/Palestine - those people mostly agree about Anti-trans and pro-Israel - but of course I wouldn't agree!
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 25, 2024 20:18:04 GMT
Perhaps you can explain what anti-Zionism / anti-Zionists - maybe some different people who are anti-Zionists rather anti-semites. Who are they? Mike I am conscious that you sometimes have difficulty expressing yourself now. I would answer your question with pleasure, but I'm really sorry I don't fully understand what you're asking me. Do you mean "can you explain how you can be an anti-Zionist without being antisemitic"? If so, I will attempt to answer. Thanks. Ok...I understand that say Ken Loach is of the left, and you think Loach is an anti-semite. Which people are anti-Zionists, who are of the left? Maybe some examples? Apologies - it is still difficult - comes and goes.
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Post by batman on Apr 25, 2024 20:53:16 GMT
Mike I am conscious that you sometimes have difficulty expressing yourself now. I would answer your question with pleasure, but I'm really sorry I don't fully understand what you're asking me. Do you mean "can you explain how you can be an anti-Zionist without being antisemitic"? If so, I will attempt to answer. Thanks. Ok...I understand that say Ken Loach is of the left, and you think Loach is an anti-semite. Which people are anti-Zionists, who are of the left? Maybe some examples? Apologies - it is still difficult - comes and goes. still not quite clear - you mean you want me to give examples of left anti-Zionists who are not anti-Semites? (I warn you - it can be complicated!) You are correct that I consider Ken Loach to be antisemitic. But that is very little to do with anything pertaining to Zionism; he is antisemitic because he thinks it’s legitimate to question the proven facts of the Holocaust.
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Post by batman on Apr 25, 2024 20:54:28 GMT
If that is what you mean, my friends Jeremy and Ralph might qualify perhaps…..
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Post by mattbewilson on Apr 25, 2024 20:57:30 GMT
If that is what you mean, my friends Jeremy and Ralph might qualify perhaps….. I didn't know you were friends with Jeremy and Ralph
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 25, 2024 21:20:59 GMT
Thanks. Ok...I understand that say Ken Loach is of the left, and you think Loach is an anti-semite. Which people are anti-Zionists, who are of the left? Maybe some examples? Apologies - it is still difficult - comes and goes. still not quite clear - you mean you want me to give examples of left anti-Zionists who are not anti-Semites? (I warn you - it can be complicated!) You are correct that I consider Ken Loach to be antisemitic. But that is very little to do with anything pertaining to Zionism; he is antisemitic because he thinks it’s legitimate to question the proven facts of the Holocaust. OK. I'm interested - definitely. I didn't realise, for example, the "question the proven facts of the Holocaust" - I thought it was obvious that the Holocaust is true.
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Post by finsobruce on Apr 25, 2024 22:02:09 GMT
Why do you think that those particular issues are important? Others - I support voluntary euthanasia, public transport, community policing...seems to be a lot of trans issues and Israel/Palestine - those people mostly agree about Anti-trans and pro-Israel - but of course I wouldn't agree! Although possibly not all at the same time.
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Post by greenchristian on Apr 25, 2024 23:28:21 GMT
Why do you think that those particular issues are important? Others - I support voluntary euthanasia, public transport, community policing...seems to be a lot of trans issues and Israel/Palestine - those people mostly agree about Anti-trans and pro-Israel - but of course I wouldn't agree! I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't trying to suggest that you only cared about those issues. I wanted to know why you consider those two issues to be important.
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Post by uthacalthing on Apr 26, 2024 0:12:57 GMT
the "question the proven facts of the Holocaust" - I thought it was obvious that the Holocaust is true. Well yes, broadly, the Holocaust happened, and broadly it is the greatest crime in human history. But. I have some friends who are heavily into genealogy who persuaded me of the dangers of criminalising Holocaust denial. To them, whether or not Great Aunt Esther died in the aftermath to Kristallnacht or as part of Aktion T4, whether Uncle Abraham died in Auschwitz or on train bound for Auschwitz is the very stuff of their art. And a law that makes it an offence to dispute the official history is a real concern. This is distinct from my own hobby horse, that Holocaust denial is really useful as it makes it easy to spot the worst scumbags in society.
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Post by batman on Apr 26, 2024 5:33:20 GMT
I’m not saying criminalising it. I’m saying that it’s highly offensive not just to Jews but also to other groups who were industrially slaughtered to question the facts of it. We all know that here thankfully, so it seems.
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 26, 2024 7:48:15 GMT
Others - I support voluntary euthanasia, public transport, community policing...seems to be a lot of trans issues and Israel/Palestine - those people mostly agree about Anti-trans and pro-Israel - but of course I wouldn't agree! I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't trying to suggest that you only cared about those issues. I wanted to know why you consider those two issues to be important. I talk about them, but also other issues. I end up talking about them given some views - particularly trans issues which , frankly, often very Anti-trans and sometimes very unpleasant views.
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Post by greenchristian on Apr 26, 2024 9:19:01 GMT
I think you misunderstood my question. I wasn't trying to suggest that you only cared about those issues. I wanted to know why you consider those two issues to be important. I talk about them, but also other issues. I end up talking about them given some views - particularly trans issues which , frankly, often very Anti-trans and sometimes very unpleasant views. You're giving me the impression that you don't actually know why you think those issues are important.
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Post by batman on Apr 26, 2024 14:00:10 GMT
I will attempt to answer what I THINK Mike's question was. But, it is fairly complicated. The problem is as ever what is Zionism, and what is anti-Zionism.
If you are an anti-Zionist who wants to see the actual dissolution of the state of Israel, the question would have to be something like : 1 ) do you also seek the dissolution of all other states which were formed as a result of the displacement of their indigenous populations, which include every single country in the Americas, Australia & New Zealand, and quite a few more? 2 ) if not why is Israel singled out for special treatment? 3 ) or do you actually seek the dissolution of ALL existing states for various political reasons? If the answer is 3 ) you probably are not antisemitic. If the answer to no.1 is No, then you may very well be. Why do you single out Israel? We call for fundamental political change in societies where racism is practised, but not the dissolution of, e.g., the state of Australia or the USA.
However, some identify as anti-Zionists, but perhaps one should argue that they are not really correct in doing so; they may feel that the foundation of Israel was not justified in 1948, and that there should be a Jewish diaspora, but when push comes to shove they are not actually in favour of dissolving the state of Israel; it's there whether we like it or not, they may say. Some people like that identify as anti-Zionists, and have strong sympathy with the Palestinian cause, but they are definitely not anti-Semites. Perhaps they are not true anti-Zionists, but that's how they see themselves. My two aforementioned friends would perhaps be good examples of this. They're Jewish, they're actively involved in the fight against antisemitism & in one case actually organise demonstrations locally against anti-Semites from The Light magazine, but they instinctively don't want to be called Zionists, and may even call themselves anti-Zionists. So there are definitely people who see themselves, whether rightly or not it's not totally straightforward to say, as anti-Zionists who really are not antisemitic at all. Others who are bitterly critical of Israel's policies, which would include me, feel that a state of Israel is a necessity both in the world immediately post-WWII and today, and I have come to realise that, although I instinctively did not identify as a Zionist for much of my life, I am actually a Zionist. I don't hanker after living in Israel, but I feel that Israel is necessary, even if I hate its current leaders, so I am a Zionist. Perhaps my friends are too, really, but that's not how they see themselves.
I will, therefore, not lightly toss around the term anti-Semite, but Holocaust deniers or revisionists, or those who aid & abet them, and people like Stephen Sizer will certainly be termed as such by me. There are levels of antisemitism, ranging down from Nazi supporters of extermination or mass deportation of Jews down to people who would never actually be violent against a Jewish person, or explicitly say that they dislike Jews. Some people are very low on such a scale, but sadly are still on it somewhere, and they do include some well-known political figures. Ken Loach as someone who thinks that it's OK to question the facts of the Holocaust is a bit of a distance away from the bottom of the scale even though he is not a Nazi. Stephen Sizer has said so many offensive things about Jews that I'd say he is slightly further up that scale.
Hope that's the answer you were looking for Mike. Once again, I reiterate that full-throated support of the Palestinian people is never of itself antisemitic. It can only be antisemitic if it is done in a specifically antisemitic way.
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Post by batman on Apr 26, 2024 14:04:41 GMT
Before I am accused of participating in the derailing of this thread, let me just add that the people of roads such as Walpole Avenue, Ennerdale Road and Hatherley Road in Kew this morning had the exotic intrusion into their lives of a Labour Party election leaflet. They don't often get them around there. I did my own very slightly less upmarket road & its most immediate neighbour on Wednesday.
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yorkshireluke
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Post by yorkshireluke on Apr 27, 2024 14:36:55 GMT
This will be the first count I attend as a member of the counting staff. Looking forward to it. Lambeth council quicky getting me in as a poll clerk yesterday too. A fun 3 days of democracy await. And a hell of an early start on the Thurs.
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ColinJ
Labour
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Post by ColinJ on Apr 27, 2024 18:01:59 GMT
This will be the first count I attend as a member of the counting staff. Looking forward to it. Lambeth council quicky getting me in as a poll clerk yesterday too. A fun 3 days of democracy await. And a hell of an early start on the Thurs. Your anecdotal feedback about the number of voters without ID would be interesting to the forum I imagine.
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Post by andrewp on Apr 27, 2024 18:06:18 GMT
Lambeth council quicky getting me in as a poll clerk yesterday too. A fun 3 days of democracy await. And a hell of an early start on the Thurs. Your anecdotal feedback about the number of voters without ID would be interesting to the forum I imagine. I am a Presiding Officer on Thursday too. Only PCC election here, so perhaps those who are keen enough to vote in that will be less likely to not have ID? If it is difficult this time, I will not be working at the General Election.
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yorkshireluke
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I run @polmapsinfoUK, @YorkshireElects and /r/PoliticalMaps/
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Post by yorkshireluke on Apr 27, 2024 18:50:59 GMT
While I'm here, there must be someone here who knows the answer to this:
I'm filling in the Emergency Proxy form, does anyone know who I need to support the document if my reason for not being able to vote is due to being a poll clerk? Is it someone from the council?
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Post by johnloony on Apr 29, 2024 15:25:40 GMT
I have been planning my journey to go to the count at ExCel Centre on Friday & Saturday. I went to the GLA count when they had it in the big location in north London in 2008, 2012 and 2016 (but not 2021). Was it at ExCel in 2008 & 2012? Or somewhere else? If so, where? I am planning my journey but it's not looking familiar. My memory is that in 2008 and 2012 it was in a big building right next to the tube station, so there was no capacity for getting lost.
N.B. I have a very bad sense of direction, so I will need to know where to go.
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Post by carolus on Apr 29, 2024 19:53:13 GMT
I have been planning my journey to go to the count at ExCel Centre on Friday & Saturday. I went to the GLA count when they had it in the big location in north London in 2008, 2012 and 2016 (but not 2021). Was it at ExCel in 2008 & 2012? Or somewhere else? If so, where? I am planning my journey but it's not looking familiar. My memory is that in 2008 and 2012 it was in a big building right next to the tube station, so there was no capacity for getting lost. N.B. I have a very bad sense of direction, so I will need to know where to go. I don't know where it was held in the past, or details of the count this time (e.g. whether you need to go to a different entrance) but the ExCel is pretty much directly attached to the Customs House for ExCel DLR station - there is a signed exit via a bridge and walkway that leads you to the entrance of the centre.
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