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Post by mattbewilson on Sept 7, 2022 11:15:30 GMT
it certainly puts me off full PR. But a hybrid system could avoid such a situation The Dutch have the most proportional electoral system known to man, no regional lists, no thresholds, no single member districts, just a seat for any party with over 0.667% of the popular vote. This isn't the way it works in Sweden (which has 8 parties in its parliament, very close to what I suggest would make it here!) let alone Germany or New Zealand! Even Sweden and Germany have grand coalition which make me a little unsure about their systems |
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Post by freefair on Sept 7, 2022 12:23:59 GMT
I don't think Norway, Denmark & Sweden have ever had grand coalitions of the Social Democrats & Centre-Right. Finland has a few times though, mainly to unite the parties of the urban majority & scale back the Rural Pork-barrelling of the Centre Party !
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Post by mattbewilson on Sept 7, 2022 12:43:35 GMT
I don't think Norway, Denmark & Sweden have ever had grand coalitions of the Social Democrats & Centre-Right. Finland has a few times though, mainly to unite the parties of the urban majority & scale back the Rural Pork-barrelling of the Centre Party ! since 2015 the Social Democrats and Greens haven't had a majority in Sweden. To ensure all budgets pass, etc. there was a meeting between all the parties except the left and the Sweden Democrats. It was agreed that the centre right parties wouldn't vote down the governments budget |
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Sept 7, 2022 13:08:16 GMT
There probably wasn't any other realistic outcome after the 2012 election there though. Or to put it another way, the inconclusive mess that was the 2012 Dutch election is a very good argument against PR. Well the issue isn't that the PvdA opted to go into coalition with the VVD (who they had been in government with before, of course) so much as the fact that in government they did not act in the way that their electorate assumed they would: rather than act as a moderating influence on Rutte, they acquiesced fully with everything and so failed to fulfill their traditional function in the Dutch political system, for which they were then punished. There are obvious parallels there with the LibDems here and also with Irish 'Labour', though neither were anything like as important as the PvdA had previously been so it isn't exact. And as also mentioned above, PASOK. Though I do note that both they (albeit renamed and repackaged) and the PvdA have recovered a bit from their absolute lows. |
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Post by mattbewilson on Sept 7, 2022 13:19:47 GMT
Well the issue isn't that the PvdA opted to go into coalition with the VVD (who they had been in government with before, of course) so much as the fact that in government they did not act in the way that their electorate assumed they would: rather than act as a moderating influence on Rutte, they acquiesced fully with everything and so failed to fulfill their traditional function in the Dutch political system, for which they were then punished. There are obvious parallels there with the LibDems here and also with Irish 'Labour', though neither were anything like as important as the PvdA had previously been so it isn't exact. And as also mentioned above, PASOK. Though I do note that both they (albeit renamed and repackaged) and the PvdA have recovered a bit from their absolute lows. repackaged PASOK have re-established themselves as a third party in Greece, and now Greece have got rid of the 50 seat plus boost there's a real chance that SYRIZA-PASOK coalition could form the next government even though ND get the most seats. Dutch Labor are just at a low that's not as low as their lowest l of w |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 7, 2022 13:19:53 GMT
I’m more in favour of FPTP then I’ve ever been since moving to Israel,
No one is looking out for you or your area and the will of the majority gets regularly railroaded by special interest groups, Haredi and Arab pork.
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Post by freefair on Sept 7, 2022 13:45:52 GMT
I’m more in favour of FPTP then I’ve ever been since moving to Israel, No one is looking out for you or your area and the will of the majority gets regularly railroaded by special interest groups, Haredi and Arab pork. The trouble there seems to be that the "majority" (non-Arab, non-Settler, non-Haredi) is split into two competing large minorities each of which has to coalition with a minority group to push itself over the line & give itself a majority. I don't see FPTP doing much to settle this unless you believe that FPTP would railroad the minorities into voting for either the Big Left Party or the Big Right Party to keep their bigger enemy out (possible but undesirable for its own reasons), & anyhow under PR the minority groups in theory could be bypassed through a grand coalition of the secular & Jewish mainstream. The Knesset is to small for a country of 9 million however, it should probably be expanded to at least 160 seats , probably best to switch to 50% FPTP 50% List PR voting system as well. |
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Post by mattbewilson on Sept 7, 2022 13:50:14 GMT
I’m more in favour of FPTP then I’ve ever been since moving to Israel, No one is looking out for you or your area and the will of the majority gets regularly railroaded by special interest groups, Haredi and Arab pork. The trouble there seems to be that the "majority" (non-Arab, non-Settler, non-Haredi) is split into two competing large minorities each of which has to coalition with a minority group to push itself over the line & give itself a majority. I don't see FPTP doing much to settle this unless you believe that FPTP would railroad the minorities into voting for either the Big Left Party or the Big Right Party to keep their bigger enemy out (possible but undesirable for its own reasons), & even then under PR the minority groups in theory could be bypassed through a grand coalition of the secular & Jewish mainstream. The Knesset is to small for a country of 9 million however, it should probably be expanded to at least 160 seats , probably best to switch top 50% FPTP 50% List PR as well. Ive always been in favour of larger parliaments but started to come around to smaller ones. Though Israel is a good example of where a small chamber can be just as fractured as a big one |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 7, 2022 14:11:04 GMT
I’m more in favour of FPTP then I’ve ever been since moving to Israel, No one is looking out for you or your area and the will of the majority gets regularly railroaded by special interest groups, Haredi and Arab pork. The trouble there seems to be that the "majority" (non-Arab, non-Settler, non-Haredi) is split into two competing large minorities each of which has to coalition with a minority group to push itself over the line & give itself a majority. I don't see FPTP doing much to settle this unless you believe that FPTP would railroad the minorities into voting for either the Big Left Party or the Big Right Party to keep their bigger enemy out (possible but undesirable for its own reasons), & even then under PR the minority groups in theory could be bypassed through a grand coalition of the secular & Jewish mainstream. The Knesset is to small for a country of 9 million however, it should probably be expanded to at least 160 seats , probably best to switch to 50% FPTP 50% List PR voting system as well. I personally think that it should be 120 seats, 50% PR 50% FPTP. I would also support this as the Israeli right would probably significantly overperform in FPTP as a decent chunk of the “anti-Bibi” bloc is not actually anti-Bibi but hates the Mizrahi wing with passion for attacking their parents all of the times as most Lapid/Gantz voters in Israel are Secular Ashkenazis who are basically right leaning on almost every issue but view Likud as a borderline Mizrahi interests party and don’t like the pork that the religious parties receive. |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 7, 2022 14:16:53 GMT
The trouble there seems to be that the "majority" (non-Arab, non-Settler, non-Haredi) is split into two competing large minorities each of which has to coalition with a minority group to push itself over the line & give itself a majority. I don't see FPTP doing much to settle this unless you believe that FPTP would railroad the minorities into voting for either the Big Left Party or the Big Right Party to keep their bigger enemy out (possible but undesirable for its own reasons), & even then under PR the minority groups in theory could be bypassed through a grand coalition of the secular & Jewish mainstream. The Knesset is to small for a country of 9 million however, it should probably be expanded to at least 160 seats , probably best to switch top 50% FPTP 50% List PR as well. Ive always been in favour of larger parliaments but started to come around to smaller ones. Though Israel is a good example of where a small chamber can be just as fractured as a big one It would be even worse if the Knesset was larger, you would get 1.Drug lovers party 2.Right Libertarian party 3.Secular Mizrahi supremacist part 4.Gas all Arabs party 5.Socialist party with strong nationalist and conservative tendencies 6.Left Libertarian party 7.Druze interests party 8.Galil Arabs party 9.Triangle Arab interests party |
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 7, 2022 14:31:31 GMT
I’m more in favour of FPTP then I’ve ever been since moving to Israel, No one is looking out for you or your area and the will of the majority gets regularly railroaded by special interest groups, Haredi and Arab pork. The trouble there seems to be that the "majority" (non-Arab, non-Settler, non-Haredi) is split into two competing large minorities each of which has to coalition with a minority group to push itself over the line & give itself a majority. I don't see FPTP doing much to settle this unless you believe that FPTP would railroad the minorities into voting for either the Big Left Party or the Big Right Party to keep their bigger enemy out (possible but undesirable for its own reasons), & even then under PR the minority groups in theory could be bypassed through a grand coalition of the secular & Jewish mainstream. The Knesset is to small for a country of 9 million however, it should probably be expanded to at least 160 seats , probably best to switch to 50% FPTP 50% List PR voting system as well. Given the geographical concentration of different communities in different areas in Israel, unlikely. If anything the religious parties may have even more influence. |
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Post by rcronald on Sept 7, 2022 14:47:53 GMT
The trouble there seems to be that the "majority" (non-Arab, non-Settler, non-Haredi) is split into two competing large minorities each of which has to coalition with a minority group to push itself over the line & give itself a majority. I don't see FPTP doing much to settle this unless you believe that FPTP would railroad the minorities into voting for either the Big Left Party or the Big Right Party to keep their bigger enemy out (possible but undesirable for its own reasons), & even then under PR the minority groups in theory could be bypassed through a grand coalition of the secular & Jewish mainstream. The Knesset is to small for a country of 9 million however, it should probably be expanded to at least 160 seats , probably best to switch to 50% FPTP 50% List PR voting system as well. Given the geographical concentration of different communities in different areas in Israel, unlikely. If anything the religious parties may have even more influence. The only thing FPTP would do is massively decrease the Jewish portion of the anti-Bibi bloc and move the Arab parties in a less nationalistic position. |
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