rcronald
Likud
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Post by rcronald on Sept 6, 2022 14:02:21 GMT
Even with a new hard left party (LA) and a Progressive party? The Progressives would be left-leaning centrists, rather pro-business in a Technocratic Keynesian way or Third Way Blairite perhaps after the 1980s, Pro Nuclear energy, Pro Nuclear armarment, Pro-Science & anti "Woo" but also socially very liberal on LGBT+ issues, pro Free Speech & Secularist, pro-Immigration, YIMBY , Free Trade, pro-Market Environmentalism, etc. Call it Woke Capitalism? They'd be a hinge party open to coalition with the PopDems & FreeDems . GreenRadicals much more pro- actively Anti-Racist, pro Social Justice, Radical Feminist, Sustainable growth/NIMBY & Alter Globalisation, as well as relatively pacifistic, anti Trident, etc, & more stridently left on economics/welfare although not quite to the degree of the Left Alliance. Oh, so the Progs are to the right of what I thought. Btw, I assume that LA is basically an Old Left party and GR are the New Left party? |
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Post by freefair on Sept 6, 2022 14:35:43 GMT
Oh, so the Progs are to the right of what I thought. Btw, I assume that LA is basically an Old Left party and GR are the New Left party? Essentially, GR is 70% Eco- Socialist New Left & 30% very Environmentalist left-liberals. LA would not mainly be Eurocommunists either but Bevanites, SCG, Momentum. |
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myth11
Non-Aligned
too busy at work!
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Post by myth11 on Sept 6, 2022 14:48:00 GMT
At many points in British history major poltical parties have considered reforming the voting system. Even the Tories did consider advocating for Single Transferrable Vote Proportional Representation when it looked like the Liberals might be in power for decades around the time of the Great War. Based on the multi-party politics of our near neighbours in Europe I think if the UK had adopted STV, Open List or MMP-PR in 1918 with a 4% threshold for representation, I predict that our party system would have evolved to now resemble this list of hypothetical parties ordered subjectively from left to right: (with pan-European party, global federation, broad Ideology, EU stance, & current leader listed for reference)
Left Alliance (GUE, NGL, PI, SI)- Democratic Socialism, Euroscepticism. Leader: Jeremy Corbyn MP GreenRadicals (EGP, GG) - Green Progressivism, Pro-Europeanism. Leader: Layla Moran MP Social Democrats (PES, PA)- Social Democracy, Pro-Europeanism. Leader: Andy Burnham MP Progressives (ALDE, LI) - Social Liberalism, Eurofederalism. Leader: Chuka Umunna MP Popular Democrats (EPP, CDI) - Progressive Conservatism/Christian Democracy, Pro-Europeanism. Leader: Tom Tugendhat MP Free Democrats (ECR, IDU) - Free Market Liberal Conservatism, Soft Euroscepticism. Leader: Liz Truss MP United Patriots (I&D, The Movement) - National Conservatism, Euroscepticism. Leader: Kemi Badenoch MP Do you agree? Feel free to submit your own ideas as to what parties we would now have, what their history would be, which politicians would be in them, where they would stand on various issues There would at least 3 "green parties" with Germany having 6 in the 2021 fed election. |
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Post by islington on Sept 6, 2022 14:50:06 GMT
Assuming the 4% applied across the UK as a whole, wouldn't SNP and PC collaborate and pool their votes so as to ensure representation?
Also, I agree with the comment just downthread that these are all very much AB / C1 parties. Wouldn't there also be a headbanging nationalist anti-foreigner UKIP-style party campaigning to bring back hanging and pre-decimal currency and the Black & White Minstrel Show and generally take us back to the 1950s?
I can imagine United Patriots members & representatives agreeing with most of those stances. National Conservatism & Rightist Populism are significantly overlapping & indeed in my view do belong in the same party! Kemi Badenoch is my example leader who may be of Immigrant origin but she certainly isn't politically correct or woke! UP is a merger of the most nationalistic 25% of the Tory party with UKIP, continuity SDP & the Brexit Party. If what you mean by headbangers is an Ethnic Nationalist or hardcore Islamophobic NF/BNP type party, I can't imagine that would pass the 4 or 5% threshold at a GE. The British people just aren't that racist en-masse! I was thinking of something fairly Trumpy, but in a British context, obviously.
I'm not saying it would get the same levels of support as Trump does in the US, but I imagine it would easily clear 4%.
I don't think it would be overtly racist (but then again, neither is Trump) and not all its supporters would be racist, but enough of them would be that a non-white leader wouldn't be feasible.
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Post by mattbewilson on Sept 6, 2022 15:46:39 GMT
The problem with breaking up the labour party into basically 3 ideological blocs; left, centre left and moderates, is while Labour's voting base does probably break up three ways the party doesn't. A lot of people think the labour party is an uncomfortable coalition forced together by FPTP. But actually it's an uncomfortable coalition forced together by the romantic idea that the party belongs to one faction and the others are just entryists
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 6, 2022 15:54:01 GMT
The problem with breaking up the labour party into basically 3 ideological blocs; left, centre left and moderates, is while Labour's voting base does probably break up three ways the party doesn't. A lot of people think the labour party is an uncomfortable coalition forced together by FPTP. But actually it's an uncomfortable coalition forced together by the romantic idea that the party belongs to one faction and the others are just entryists I agree - but I think that is partially about FPTP. I do think that if there was realignment then all three blocs would have to agree to lose the monicker of "Labour". |
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Post by mattbewilson on Sept 6, 2022 15:55:46 GMT
The problem with breaking up the labour party into basically 3 ideological blocs; left, centre left and moderates, is while Labour's voting base does probably break up three ways the party doesn't. A lot of people think the labour party is an uncomfortable coalition forced together by FPTP. But actually it's an uncomfortable coalition forced together by the romantic idea that the party belongs to one faction and the others are just entryists I agree - but I think that is partially about FPTP. I do think that if there was realignment then all three blocs would have to agree to lose the monicker of "Labour". and that's never gonna happen. We'll get them using the same colours as well |
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 6, 2022 15:59:00 GMT
I agree - but I think that is partially about FPTP. I do think that if there was realignment then all three blocs would have to agree to lose the monicker of "Labour". and that's never gonna happen. We'll get them using the same colours as well I think it would then be enforced as there would have to be a rule that disputed terminology which more than one party had a claim to could not be used. But is it not about time your party grew up? Remember that under PR you could never get an overall majority so there would need to be co-operation. |
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 14,772
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Post by J.G.Harston on Sept 6, 2022 16:10:23 GMT
The problem with breaking up the labour party into basically 3 ideological blocs; left, centre left and moderates, is while Labour's voting base does probably break up three ways the party doesn't. A lot of people think the labour party is an uncomfortable coalition forced together by FPTP. But actually it's an uncomfortable coalition forced together by the romantic idea that the party belongs to one faction and the others are just entryists I agree - but I think that is partially about FPTP. I do think that if there was realignment then all three blocs would have to agree to lose the monicker of "Labour". But all three blocs see the name "Labour" as the sole valuable asset, the holy grail, Keir Hardie's Cap, The Defining MacGuffin, and would fight genocidedly to keep it. |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on Sept 6, 2022 16:27:07 GMT
At many points in British history major poltical parties have considered reforming the voting system. Even the Tories did consider advocating for Single Transferrable Vote Proportional Representation when it looked like the Liberals might be in power for decades around the time of the Great War. Based on the multi-party politics of our near neighbours in Europe I think if the UK had adopted STV, Open List or MMP-PR in 1918 with a 4% threshold for representation, I predict that our party system would have evolved to now resemble this list of hypothetical parties ordered subjectively from left to right: (with pan-European party, global federation, broad Ideology, EU stance, & current leader listed for reference)
Left Alliance (GUE, NGL, PI, SI)- Democratic Socialism, Euroscepticism. Leader: Jeremy Corbyn MP GreenRadicals (EGP, GG) - Green Progressivism, Pro-Europeanism. Leader: Layla Moran MP Social Democrats (PES, PA)- Social Democracy, Pro-Europeanism. Leader: Andy Burnham MP Progressives (ALDE, LI) - Social Liberalism, Eurofederalism. Leader: Chuka Umunna MP Popular Democrats (EPP, CDI) - Progressive Conservatism/Christian Democracy, Pro-Europeanism. Leader: Tom Tugendhat MP Free Democrats (ECR, IDU) - Free Market Liberal Conservatism, Soft Euroscepticism. Leader: Liz Truss MP United Patriots (I&D, The Movement) - National Conservatism, Euroscepticism. Leader: Kemi Badenoch MP Do you agree? Feel free to submit your own ideas as to what parties we would now have, what their history would be, which politicians would be in them, where they would stand on various issues There would at least 3 "green parties" with Germany having 6 in the 2021 fed election. Just think how many leaders and deputy leaders they would have... |
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sirbenjamin
IFP
True fame is reading your name written in graffiti, but without the words 'is a wanker' after it.
Posts: 4,979
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Post by sirbenjamin on Sept 6, 2022 16:27:22 GMT
I'm sure there would be a UKIP+/BNP/Nationalist type party that would never have Badenoch as its leader.
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 6, 2022 16:38:17 GMT
I agree - but I think that is partially about FPTP. I do think that if there was realignment then all three blocs would have to agree to lose the monicker of "Labour". But all three blocs see the name "Labour" as the sole valuable asset, the holy grail, Keir Hardie's Cap, The Defining MacGuffin, and would fight genocidedly to keep it. Tough. None would be able to. |
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Post by islington on Sept 6, 2022 17:19:30 GMT
The problem with breaking up the labour party into basically 3 ideological blocs; left, centre left and moderates, is while Labour's voting base does probably break up three ways the party doesn't. A lot of people think the labour party is an uncomfortable coalition forced together by FPTP. But actually it's an uncomfortable coalition forced together by the romantic idea that the party belongs to one faction and the others are just entryists I agree - but I think that is partially about FPTP. I do think that if there was realignment then all three blocs would have to agree to lose the monicker of "Labour". Yes, it's the beauty of FPTP that it makes it so obvious that disunity spells electoral disaster that political activists are compelled to overcome their fissiparous urges and stay yoked together like Tony Curtis and Sidney Poitier in the 1958 film the Defiant Ones (which I considered for inclusion in my list). |
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 6, 2022 17:33:42 GMT
I agree - but I think that is partially about FPTP. I do think that if there was realignment then all three blocs would have to agree to lose the monicker of "Labour". Yes, it's the beauty of FPTP that it makes it so obvious that disunity spells electoral disaster that political activists are compelled to overcome their fissiparous urges and stay yoked together like Tony Curtis and Sidney Poitier in the 1958 film the Defiant Ones (which I considered for inclusion in my list). Separate parties would not experience electoral disaster but representation according to the votes they receive. Their majoritarian preferences would become a thing of the past, thankfully |
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Post by mattbewilson on Sept 6, 2022 17:39:51 GMT
Yes, it's the beauty of FPTP that it makes it so obvious that disunity spells electoral disaster that political activists are compelled to overcome their fissiparous urges and stay yoked together like Tony Curtis and Sidney Poitier in the 1958 film the Defiant Ones (which I considered for inclusion in my list). Separate parties would not experience electoral disaster but representation according to the votes they receive. Their majoritarian preferences would become a thing of the past, thankfully PASOK is wanting a word, oh Dutch Labor is on their way too |
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Post by mattbewilson on Sept 6, 2022 17:42:10 GMT
I agree - but I think that is partially about FPTP. I do think that if there was realignment then all three blocs would have to agree to lose the monicker of "Labour". But all three blocs see the name "Labour" as the sole valuable asset, the holy grail, Keir Hardie's Cap, The Defining MacGuffin, and would fight genocidedly to keep it. I want that cap. Perhaps not genocide, there might be bloodshed though. Some of it mine |
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Post by Merseymike on Sept 6, 2022 17:43:47 GMT
Separate parties would not experience electoral disaster but representation according to the votes they receive. Their majoritarian preferences would become a thing of the past, thankfully PASOK is wanting a word, oh Dutch Labor is on their way too Their own fault in both cases. Anyway, looks like you are accepting permanent opposition given that electoral reform will be a demand for any feasible alternative arrangement |
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Post by mattbewilson on Sept 6, 2022 17:49:06 GMT
PASOK is wanting a word, oh Dutch Labor is on their way too Their own fault in both cases. Anyway, looks like you are accepting permanent opposition given that electoral reform will be a demand for any feasible alternative arrangement I'm not actually opposed to electoral reform... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2022 19:54:16 GMT
I suspect under this scenario there would still be a Labour Party retaining the vast majority of the current party's "only bother with politics on GE day" vote alongside the working-class union voters/activists. The politically engaged educated middle-class vote would likely form some kind of red-green or left-alliance party but it would be quite small. The Labour Party without their influence might be more conservative on immigration and crime but I'm not sure.
That said, if the UK were to have adopted PR at any point in its history I'm not sure 1918 is the most likely date which must surely make a difference
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Post by mattbewilson on Sept 6, 2022 21:03:12 GMT
I suspect under this scenario there would still be a Labour Party retaining the vast majority of the current party's "only bother with politics on GE day" vote alongside the working-class union voters/activists. The politically engaged educated middle-class vote would likely form some kind of red-green or left-alliance party but it would be quite small. The Labour Party without their influence might be more conservative on immigration and crime but I'm not sure. That said, if the UK were to have adopted PR at any point in its history I'm not sure 1918 is the most likely date which must surely make a difference the problem is as a member of this politically educated middle-class (though maybe I'm a minority) I can't see myself opting for red green alliance over the labour party. I can see people leaving who are perhaps more FBPE/progressive alliance people who seem to support Labour atm out of some hope the party will enter government and reverse brexit. They seem the increasingly growing tribe in the Labour party who have the least amount of tribal loyalty. The Labour party seem to be an extension of the Lib Dems and Greens from their POV |
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