cogload
Lib Dem
I jumped in the river and what did I see...
Posts: 8,245
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Wakefield
May 29, 2022 10:22:10 GMT
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Post by cogload on May 29, 2022 10:22:10 GMT
So Labour will win this. By how far is the question we should now be asking...?
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Wakefield
May 29, 2022 10:24:02 GMT
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Post by aargauer on May 29, 2022 10:24:02 GMT
So Labour will win this. By how far is the question we should now be asking...? 5:3 ish
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 29, 2022 10:27:05 GMT
Agreed. The interesting thing to me is that, on paper, there is of course an argument based on the last two GEs that Labour is better placed than us in T & H, which is also in line with their advance (to some extent at our expense) in Cornwall and the West Country generally. I consider it a sign of maturity that they appear to have taken on board the 1997-2010 history respecting LD ceiling. If we were to play silly buggers in Wakefield I would expect the mood in Labour to change fairly strongly and I think they'd easily have the capacity to scupper us in Devon (in what will be a tough call anyway.) I take a rather different view. I think we have a chance to start replacing the LibDems as the main challengers in some of those seats, and this constituency certainly has some pockets that demographically look very nice for Labour. Although it looks crazy now, I see no reason why a Labour government in c. 2050 shouldn't include several MPs from former dead spots in the south west. However, the work towards that has to start now and if we leave seats like this the the LDs then not only will we not get the opportunity to build towards winning them ourselves, but we might actually undo some of the progress we've already made, e.g. by winning a councillor in Honiton Yes, I thought you might, and I can see your point bothas an ideal and as a practical possibility. Obviously Lib Dem interests are diametrically opposed. Taking partisan attitudes out of it, it is exactly why we can't afford to leave Labour in a position where they have nothing to lose by taking your approach. I suspect that Starmer is closer to my POV and that his focus is more on the next election rather than 2050. Unless he is very confident of winning the former while simultaneously trying to displace us in the West.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 29, 2022 10:32:40 GMT
Time was when it was ha-has. Barriers that keep cattle and the rabble out but let you observe them from a safe distance so long as they are sufficiently picturesque. I like the thought of a picturesque rabble. I can't claim to have a ha-ha personally but our original village great house (Surrenden Dering) does, and I regularly walk a path which drops down into a deep dry ditch which is the continuation of the ha-ha. The ha-ha has outlived the great house, a substantial part of which was destroyed by fire in 1952. I have a very good friend living in the one surviving wing, and other friends living in the stable blocks which are now more substantial than the house itself. The Dering family were of course prominent Tories, but the estate has more recently featured a number of Lib Dem and before that Alliance events
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Post by carlton43 on May 29, 2022 10:46:36 GMT
Time was when it was ha-has. Barriers that keep cattle and the rabble out but let you observe them from a safe distance so long as they are sufficiently picturesque. I like the thought of a picturesque rabble. I can't claim to have a ha-ha personally but our original village great house (Surrenden Dering) does, and I regularly walk a path which drops down into a deep dry ditch which is the continuation of the ha-ha. The ha-ha has outlived the great house, a substantial part of which was destroyed by fire in 1952. I have a very good friend living in the one surviving wing, and other friends living in the stable blocks which are now more substantial than the house itself. The Dering family were of course prominent Tories, but the estate has more recently featured a number of Lib Dem and before that Alliance events. Yes I know that property and the ha ha. In fact I was driven past it before it was lost to fire, possibly in that same year? So long ago. You must have twinges in even thinking of it because of your own loss? The concept of the upper class ha ha for landscaping purposes on estates I feel must have come from earlier military development where in served as an initial significant obstacle to attacking forces but also had the massive value of providing a superb clear field of fire by the defence, so much better than hedges and walls.
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Post by yellowperil on May 29, 2022 11:11:35 GMT
I like the thought of a picturesque rabble. I can't claim to have a ha-ha personally but our original village great house (Surrenden Dering) does, and I regularly walk a path which drops down into a deep dry ditch which is the continuation of the ha-ha. The ha-ha has outlived the great house, a substantial part of which was destroyed by fire in 1952. I have a very good friend living in the one surviving wing, and other friends living in the stable blocks which are now more substantial than the house itself. The Dering family were of course prominent Tories, but the estate has more recently featured a number of Lib Dem and before that Alliance events. Yes I know that property and the ha ha. In fact I was driven past it before it was lost to fire, possibly in that same year? So long ago. You must have twinges in even thinking of it because of your own loss? The concept of the upper class ha ha for landscaping purposes on estates I feel must have come from earlier military development where in served as an initial significant obstacle to attacking forces but also had the massive value of providing a superb clear field of fire by the defence, so much better than hedges and walls. An interesting point- if this use of the ha-ha then pre-dates Capability Brown with whom it is usually associated, it would be the Civil War era when those defensive issues would be most relevant, and of course Surrenden Dering is not without Civil War significance. I do wonder how you could "drive past" Surrenden Dering , though- I don't think there are any glimpses of from any road. And, wow, we seem to have wandered well away from the boring subject of Wakefield.
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Post by carlton43 on May 29, 2022 11:15:52 GMT
Until now I never knew it was called a "ha-ha" - this place really does sometimes inform you of the strangest things Yet for me it has been common currency of use since my youth and I have had two friends who had one. I have shot over one as well at hares but without success. They are fast and change direction with verve. I was using a rifle and the range was 'difficult'!
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Post by finsobruce on May 29, 2022 11:26:13 GMT
Yes I know that property and the ha ha. In fact I was driven past it before it was lost to fire, possibly in that same year? So long ago. You must have twinges in even thinking of it because of your own loss? The concept of the upper class ha ha for landscaping purposes on estates I feel must have come from earlier military development where in served as an initial significant obstacle to attacking forces but also had the massive value of providing a superb clear field of fire by the defence, so much better than hedges and walls. An interesting point- if this use of the ha-ha then pre-dates Capability Brown with whom it is usually associated, it would be the Civil War era when those defensive issues would be most relevant, and of course Surrenden Dering is not without Civil War significance. I do wonder how you could "drive past" Surrenden Dering , though- I don't think there are any glimpses of from any road. And, wow, we seem to have wandered well away from the boring subject of Wakefield. The word is originally french and certainly predates Capability Brown.
In a possibly related manner the word brouhaha is thought to come from French theatre - whenever the devil appeared (quite a lot) he would exclaim "Brou! Ha Ha!".
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Post by mrsir on May 29, 2022 11:57:36 GMT
The CPA candidate.
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Post by carlton43 on May 29, 2022 12:27:35 GMT
Yes I know that property and the ha ha. In fact I was driven past it before it was lost to fire, possibly in that same year? So long ago. You must have twinges in even thinking of it because of your own loss? The concept of the upper class ha ha for landscaping purposes on estates I feel must have come from earlier military development where in served as an initial significant obstacle to attacking forces but also had the massive value of providing a superb clear field of fire by the defence, so much better than hedges and walls. An interesting point- if this use of the ha-ha then pre-dates Capability Brown with whom it is usually associated, it would be the Civil War era when those defensive issues would be most relevant, and of course Surrenden Dering is not without Civil War significance. I do wonder how you could "drive past" Surrenden Dering , though- I don't think there are any glimpses of from any road. And, wow, we seem to have wandered well away from the boring subject of Wakefield. It is much earlier than Civil War and used in Italy by 15thC but possibly Greek in origin, or earlier still? And I was driven past by my Father during school holidays. He was then an NFU official (both the organisation and the insurers) and was calling I think on estate tenant famers to get a better overview of buildings and deadstock risk values? Anyway it was pointed out to us by one of them and we expressed an interest, so after a phone call we went through part of these grounds and I ran about on the ha ha and they wandered nearer the house. Why on earth would you doubt me YP? What have I got to gain by pretence? I did see many of the great houses of East Kent then for those reasons.
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Wakefield
May 29, 2022 12:48:27 GMT
via mobile
Post by Merseymike on May 29, 2022 12:48:27 GMT
I thought he was a Bickerdike not a Bickerdale?
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Post by finsobruce on May 29, 2022 12:58:36 GMT
I thought he was a Bickerdike not a Bickerdale? And resembles John Shuttleworth.
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Post by yellowperil on May 29, 2022 13:10:51 GMT
An interesting point- if this use of the ha-ha then pre-dates Capability Brown with whom it is usually associated, it would be the Civil War era when those defensive issues would be most relevant, and of course Surrenden Dering is not without Civil War significance. I do wonder how you could "drive past" Surrenden Dering , though- I don't think there are any glimpses of from any road. And, wow, we seem to have wandered well away from the boring subject of Wakefield. It is much earlier than Civil War and used in Italy by 15thC but possibly Greek in origin, or earlier still? And I was driven past by my Father during school holidays. He was then an NFU official (both the organisation and the insurers) and was calling I think on estate tenant famers to get a better overview of buildings and deadstock risk values? Anyway it was pointed out to us by one of them and we expressed an interest, so after a phone call we went through part of these grounds and I ran about on the ha ha and they wandered nearer the house. Why on earth would you doubt me YP? What have I got to gain by pretence? I did see many of the great houses of East Kent then for those reasons. I wouldn't dare to doubt you, Carlton, I was just puzzled, with my present pretty detailed knowledge of the site as it now is, as to how you could then "drive by". As you have now explained it I understand, and at least one surviving private estate road, through to the stable block, and one pretty rough farm track round the outside, both of which I regularly walk, might have been accessed by car in those circumstances. Was the main house then still operating as the school?- as you say it was the school holidays,but as I understand it the main building was still a school up to the fire.
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on May 29, 2022 13:12:59 GMT
I thought he was a Bickerdike not a Bickerdale? And resembles John Shuttleworth. Pigeons in Flight v My Lovely Horse would have been a battle royale.
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Post by carlton43 on May 29, 2022 13:27:05 GMT
It is much earlier than Civil War and used in Italy by 15thC but possibly Greek in origin, or earlier still? And I was driven past by my Father during school holidays. He was then an NFU official (both the organisation and the insurers) and was calling I think on estate tenant famers to get a better overview of buildings and deadstock risk values? Anyway it was pointed out to us by one of them and we expressed an interest, so after a phone call we went through part of these grounds and I ran about on the ha ha and they wandered nearer the house. Why on earth would you doubt me YP? What have I got to gain by pretence? I did see many of the great houses of East Kent then for those reasons. I wouldn't dare to doubt you, Carlton, I was just puzzled, with my present pretty detailed knowledge of the site as it now is, as to how you could then "drive by". As you have now explained it I understand, and at least one surviving private estate road, through to the stable block, and one pretty rough farm track round the outside, both of which I regularly walk, might have been accessed by car in those circumstances. Was the main house then still operating as the school?- as you say it was the school holidays,but as I understand it the main building was still a school up to the fire. Don't know. I was young. No activity at all. Nothing obviously school like.
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Post by finsobruce on May 29, 2022 13:44:29 GMT
I wouldn't dare to doubt you, Carlton, I was just puzzled, with my present pretty detailed knowledge of the site as it now is, as to how you could then "drive by". As you have now explained it I understand, and at least one surviving private estate road, through to the stable block, and one pretty rough farm track round the outside, both of which I regularly walk, might have been accessed by car in those circumstances. Was the main house then still operating as the school?- as you say it was the school holidays,but as I understand it the main building was still a school up to the fire. Don't know. I was young. No activity at all. Nothing obviously school like. Just to be helpful , I think there was a school there as confirmed in an oblique way by The Chatham Standard of 20th December 1950 when it reports that Viscount Montgomery was to stay for Christmas with his old friend Major T Reynolds , headmaster of Northaw Boys Preparatory School, Surrenden-Dering. Reynolds had acted as guardian to Montgomery's son David during the war.
I've found a photo of the school and it's the same building.
A further report from 1953 shows that the Tudor oak staircase from the house was acquired by Lenleys of Burgate, Canterbury for their newly extended showroom. It "leads to their new gift department".
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Post by finsobruce on May 29, 2022 13:59:23 GMT
Time was when it was ha-has. Barriers that keep cattle and the rabble out but let you observe them from a safe distance so long as they are sufficiently picturesque. I like the thought of a picturesque rabble. I can't claim to have a ha-ha personally but our original village great house (Surrenden Dering) does, and I regularly walk a path which drops down into a deep dry ditch which is the continuation of the ha-ha. The ha-ha has outlived the great house, a substantial part of which was destroyed by fire in 1952. I have a very good friend living in the one surviving wing, and other friends living in the stable blocks which are now more substantial than the house itself. The Dering family were of course prominent Tories, but the estate has more recently featured a number of Lib Dem and before that Alliance events. The Stable block was put up for sale in May 1953 including "Harness and Fodder room. Four excellent flats over each with bath, el and water" for £2,500 freehold. Advertised as ideal for a riding school, "bungalow and about ten acres" also available.
Sole Agents :Burrows, Clements, Winch and Sons, Bank St, Ashford.
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Wakefield
May 29, 2022 14:00:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by neilm on May 29, 2022 14:00:16 GMT
Don't know. I was young. No activity at all. Nothing obviously school like. Just to be helpful , I think there was a school there as confirmed in an oblique way by The Chatham Standard of 20th December 1950 when it reports that Viscount Montgomery was to stay for Christmas with his old friend Major T Reynolds , headmaster of Northaw Boys Preparatory School, Surrenden-Dering. Reynolds had acted as guardian to Montgomery's son David during the war.
I've found a photo of the school and it's the same building.
A further report from 1953 shows that the Tudor oak staircase from the house was acquired by Lenleys of Burgate, Canterbury for their newly extended showroom. It "lead to their new gift department".
Presumably the staircase survived the 1952 fire.
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Wakefield
May 29, 2022 14:00:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by neilm on May 29, 2022 14:00:58 GMT
I like the thought of a picturesque rabble. I can't claim to have a ha-ha personally but our original village great house (Surrenden Dering) does, and I regularly walk a path which drops down into a deep dry ditch which is the continuation of the ha-ha. The ha-ha has outlived the great house, a substantial part of which was destroyed by fire in 1952. I have a very good friend living in the one surviving wing, and other friends living in the stable blocks which are now more substantial than the house itself. The Dering family were of course prominent Tories, but the estate has more recently featured a number of Lib Dem and before that Alliance events. The Stable block was put up for sale in May 1953 including "Harness and Fodder room. Four excellent flats over each with bath, el and water" for £2,500 freehold. Advertised as ideal for a riding school, "bungalow and about ten acres" also available.
Sole Agents :Burrows, Clements, Winch and Sons, Bank St, Ashford.
El is presumably electricity.
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Post by finsobruce on May 29, 2022 14:15:30 GMT
Just to be helpful , I think there was a school there as confirmed in an oblique way by The Chatham Standard of 20th December 1950 when it reports that Viscount Montgomery was to stay for Christmas with his old friend Major T Reynolds , headmaster of Northaw Boys Preparatory School, Surrenden-Dering. Reynolds had acted as guardian to Montgomery's son David during the war.
I've found a photo of the school and it's the same building.
A further report from 1953 shows that the Tudor oak staircase from the house was acquired by Lenleys of Burgate, Canterbury for their newly extended showroom. It "lead to their new gift department".
Presumably the staircase survived the 1952 fire. It did. A report from the Londonderry Sentinel in May 1953 highlighting the activities of Mr Freddie Bowler "who travels about the country pulling down the stately homes of England" , quotes him as saying that he and his men had removed thousands of feet of old English oak from the demolition of Surrenden Manor; "You could not drive a nail into it, said Mr Bowler".
The Dering Estate had been sold in 1928, with a further sale breaking it up into lots (basically everything in Pluckley and the surrounding area).
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