Did anyone else have a problem with "Winning Combinations"?

[Harry Hayfield]

Question: Which party won both the 1974 general elections?
Accepted Answer: Labour

I have sent the following to the production team hoping for an answer:

The February 1974 general election resulted in a hung Parliament (where no party had an overall majority) and at the time the general consensus was that no party "won" the election. The October 1974 general election resulted in a Labour majority of 3 seats, therefore clearly Labour won.



In the context of votes cast, in February 1974 the Conservatives polled 11,872,180 votes (37.9% of the total) against Labour's 11,645,616 votes (37.2% of the total) therefore the Conservatives could claim to have "won" the election. The October 1974 election saw Labour poll 11,457,079 votes (39.2% of the total) to the Conservatives 10,462,565 votes (35.8% of the total) and therefore along with a majority of seats did win that election

When I get a reply, I would appreciate members thoughts on their answer.

[LDCaerdydd]

I assume this was a question on a TV quiz show?

The producers probably meant ‘win’ as in who was PM as a result of the elections which is quite clearly Labour.

It is also let us not forget that seats not votes which count.

I’m happy to say that the Conservatives won the last four UK General Elections and I think that is accepted. It can of course be clarified that they didn’t win outright in two of the four, but they did most definitely win.

[Harry Hayfield]

Oct 7, 2021 17:33:35 GMT LDCaerdydd said:

I assume this was a question on a TV quiz show?

The producers probably meant ‘win’ as in who was PM as a result of the elections which is quite clearly Labour.

It is also let us not forget that seats not votes which count.

I’m happy to say that the Conservatives won the last four UK General Elections and I think that is accepted. It can of course be clarified that they didn’t win outright in two of the four, but they did most definitely win.

That's right, its one of the many ITV daytime gameshows that have sprung up ever since they ran out of things to show in the afternoons (the space where CITV used to be).

[nodealbrexiteer]

Oct 7, 2021 19:23:14 GMT Harry Hayfield said:

Oct 7, 2021 17:33:35 GMT LDCaerdydd said:

I assume this was a question on a TV quiz show?

The producers probably meant ‘win’ as in who was PM as a result of the elections which is quite clearly Labour.

It is also let us not forget that seats not votes which count.

I’m happy to say that the Conservatives won the last four UK General Elections and I think that is accepted. It can of course be clarified that they didn’t win outright in two of the four, but they did most definitely win.

That's right, its one of the many ITV daytime gameshows that have sprung up ever since they ran out of things to show in the afternoons (the space where CITV used to be).

i was kind of sad to see children's progammes disappear from around 4-5.30 on bbc1 and itv

[islington]

Oct 7, 2021 15:52:02 GMT Harry Hayfield said:

Question: Which party won both the 1974 general elections?
Accepted Answer: Labour

I have sent the following to the production team hoping for an answer:

The February 1974 general election resulted in a hung Parliament (where no party had an overall majority) and at the time the general consensus was that no party "won" the election. The October 1974 general election resulted in a Labour majority of 3 seats, therefore clearly Labour won.



In the context of votes cast, in February 1974 the Conservatives polled 11,872,180 votes (37.9% of the total) against Labour's 11,645,616 votes (37.2% of the total) therefore the Conservatives could claim to have "won" the election. The October 1974 election saw Labour poll 11,457,079 votes (39.2% of the total) to the Conservatives 10,462,565 votes (35.8% of the total) and therefore along with a majority of seats did win that election

When I get a reply, I would appreciate members thoughts on their answer.

I wouldn't quarrel with that answer.

You could raise the same issue about the 1929 GE, when the Tories narrowly outpolled Labour (38.1% to 37.1%); but Labour, although short of the 308 needed for a majority, won more seats (287 as against 260). I think most of us would accept that Labour won in 1929.

[sirbenjamin]

As an ocasional pub quizmaster, this is something on which I have fairly strong views:

Every question should be phrased in such a way that it AVOIDS AMBIGUITY. It's really not that difficult.

In this instance, a better-phrased question would be 'which party won the most seats in both 1974 General Elections?'

Common culprits are 'In which county is...', without specifying which set of county boundaries. Or even questions where - post-clarification - the answer is completely wrong because they haven't fucking done their research - e.g. 'Who [was the first actress who] played Peggy Mitchell in Eastenders / [was the original] bassist in Queen' etc.

[islington]

"Who was the first president of the United States?"

"Who was the first prime minister of the United Kingdom?"

[DrW]

Oct 8, 2021 1:36:07 GMT sirbenjamin said:

As an ocasional pub quizmaster, this is something on which I have fairly strong views:

Every question should be phrased in such a way that it AVOIDS AMBIGUITY. It's really not that difficult.

In this instance, a better-phrased question would be 'which party won the most seats in both 1974 General Elections?'

Common culprits are 'In which county is...', without specifying which set of county boundaries. Or even questions where - post-clarification - the answer is completely wrong because they haven't fucking done their research - e.g. 'Who [was the first actress who] played Peggy Mitchell in Eastenders / [was the original] bassist in Queen' etc.

”Who won the 1923 general election” is not, thankfully, a question that has ever come up in any pub quiz I’ve attended.

[sirbenjamin]

Oct 8, 2021 11:40:59 GMT DrW said:

Oct 8, 2021 1:36:07 GMT sirbenjamin said:

As an ocasional pub quizmaster, this is something on which I have fairly strong views:

Every question should be phrased in such a way that it AVOIDS AMBIGUITY. It's really not that difficult.

In this instance, a better-phrased question would be 'which party won the most seats in both 1974 General Elections?'

Common culprits are 'In which county is...', without specifying which set of county boundaries. Or even questions where - post-clarification - the answer is completely wrong because they haven't fucking done their research - e.g. 'Who [was the first actress who] played Peggy Mitchell in Eastenders / [was the original] bassist in Queen' etc.

”Who won the 1923 general election” is not, thankfully, a question that has ever come up in any pub quiz I’ve attended.

Next time I run a quiz I will be sure to work in a question about the 1923 election...

[Harry Hayfield]

We have an answer from the executive producer of the show:

"I am sure you can appreciate that questions used on the show need to be succinct and the wording was chosen to achieve this. I think it was fair to say Labour won both 1974 elections; yes, the February election resulted in a hung parliament but the Tories were ousted and Labour formed a minority government and took Number 10. I think this could be declared a 'win' for Labour."

[LDCaerdydd]

What do you think to this Harry?

[Harry Hayfield]

Oct 8, 2021 20:39:39 GMT LDCaerdydd said:

What do you think to this Harry?

Oh dear, Carwyn Hughes was never First Minister of anywhere but Mark Drakeford is the existing Welsh First Minister, so by just dropping the first name the question is correct.

[islington]

Oct 8, 2021 16:52:13 GMT Harry Hayfield said:

We have an answer from the executive producer of the show:

"I am sure you can appreciate that questions used on the show need to be succinct and the wording was chosen to achieve this. I think it was fair to say Labour won both 1974 elections; yes, the February election resulted in a hung parliament but the Tories were ousted and Labour formed a minority government and took Number 10. I think this could be declared a 'win' for Labour."

Not that it matters very much in the greater scheme of things, but this isn't a very satisfactory reply because it omits the most convincing reason for regarding Feb '74 as a Labour victory, namely that Labour won the most seats.

By the producer's argument above, Labour 'won' the 1923 GE even though the Tories secured more votes (38.0% v 30.7%) and seats (258 v 191), and by substantial margins on both measures.

[pericles]

The more interesting question is whether the party that gets the most votes and seats wins the election, even if the second-placed party forms the government. The 2017 NZ election is a striking example of this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_New_Zealand_general_election). The case for Labour winning is that of course, Jacinda Ardern did become Prime Minister (and despite what might be expected, it certainly wasn't a pyrrhic victory), and the reason she could is that parties supporting Labour clearly beat parties supporting National in both votes and seats.

[islington]

Or, how about the GE of 1892 in the UK?

The Tories were the largest party, ahead of the Liberals in terms both of seats (314 to 272) and of vote share (47.0% to 45.4%). But Irish nationalist parties, who won 81 seats, supported the Liberals and so Gladstone formed a government.

So - who won?

For my money, despite the Tory lead in seats and votes, 1892 feels like a Liberal win. The reason, I think, is that it was known all along that the Irish nationalists would eject the Tories and support a Liberal administration if they got the chance. This is in contrast to the 1923 GE, when it was not known at the time of the election (or for some while after) how the parties would align if no one won a majority. So I'd still see 1923 as a Tory win because they won the most votes and seats, even though they ended up in opposition when the Liberals decided to support a minority Labour administration.

But I acknowledge that other interpretations are possible.

[European Lefty]

Surely the winner of an election is whoever forms an administration afterwards and all else is an irrelevant sideshow?

[Davıd Boothroyd]

But you would still get problems eg the Irish general election of 2020.

[sirbenjamin]

Clearly 'winning' elections and forming administrations are two very different things.

In countries with so-called 'PR' systems it's entirely possible for a party to win 12% of the vote or 11% of seats or whatever and be involved in government, and a rival party to absolutely trounce them with 41% of the vote and yet be consigned to opposition...

[European Lefty]

Oct 12, 2021 1:06:27 GMT sirbenjamin said:

Clearly 'winning' elections and forming administrations are two very different things.

In countries with so-called 'PR' systems it's entirely possible for a party to win 12% of the vote or 11% of seats or whatever and be involved in government, and a rival party to absolutely trounce them with 41% of the vote and yet be consigned to opposition...

But they're unlikely to be leading it on 11%.

For example, at the 2021 SDC elections:
-Tories won the most votes and seats
-Greens came second in votes and third in seats
-Labour came third in votes and second in seats
-LDs came 4th and won three seats.

The administration formed was a Lab/Grn/LD one, crucially with Labour supplying the council leader. 

Therefore, to my mind, Labour won that election 

[greatkingrat]

I would say that if you don't know the makeup of the next administration within a day or two of the election then no party has "won", regardless of the eventual government formed.