2023 Review - London

[YL]

Perhaps this is a little better than what I had before for that Southwark to Bexley group (map also shows 3 seats in Lambeth):


1. Bexleyheath & Crayford
2. Old Bexley & Sidcup (unchanged after ward re-alignment)
3. Erith & Thamesmead
4. Eltham
5. Greenwich & Blackheath
6. Lewisham Brockley
7. Dulwich & Peckham
8. Lewisham South
9. West Norwood
10. Camberwell & Borough
11. Bermondsey & Deptford Park
12. Vauxhall
13. Streatham

I imagine there are some flaws which as someone who has never lived in London I just don't see, as well as some which I do...

[Andrew_S]

Finally completed a plan for London with the most appalling boundaries. The two new seats I came up with are (a) Norwood and (b) Ilford West & Manor Park. (Although Ilford East & Chadwell Heath comes close to being one of the new seats as well).

Norwood constituency (74,396):

Croydon wards: Crystal Palace & Upper Norwood, Norbury Park, Thornton Heath.
Lambeth wards: Gipsy Hill, Knights Hill, Streatham South, Thurlow Park.
Southwark wards: Dulwich Wood.


Ilford West & Manor Park constituency (74,356):

Redbridge wards: Clementswood, Ilford Town, Loxford, Valentines.
Newham wards: East Ham North, Green Street East, Green Street West, Little Ilford, Manor Park.


Also had to create a Wimbledon & New Maldon seat to make the numbers add up.

Probably try it again in a few weeks time.

[islington]

I liked the plan posted by YL above, but here's another take on the area. I acknowledge it still needs work.

Southwark and Bermondsey - 76154.

Camberwell - 74385.

Dulwich - 74613. With a bonus, at no additional cost, of a really awkward northward cross-border salient extending to New Cross. YL's 'Peckham & Dulwich' seat is a far better treatment of this area, but I couldn't find a way of incorporating it into my scheme.

Lewisham West - 72252. On the plus side, I feel this and the following seat amount to a much better treatment of Lewisham.

Lewisham East - 71706.

Greenwich and Deptford - 76777. Given that the Greenwich town area needs to be linked with bits of Lewisham, Deptford seems preferable to the Lewisham town area.

Eltham - 75684.

Woolwich and Thamesmead - 72110. It's unfortunate that both this seat and the previous one cross the boundary with Bexley, which means that each seat contains an orphan ward and that there is no seat wholly in Greenwich. But at least this arrangement keeps Woolwich and Woolwich Common together; and the Eltham seat, even with the orphan ward, is also an improvement on YL's.

Erith - 76413. Not a bad seat, although in a perfect world Bexleyheath and Crook Log would not be separated.

Sidcup and Bexley - 74613. Or whatever you wish to call it. 

Edited to add: Or (compared with the above): Dulwich loses Telegraph Hill, New Cross Gate, Goose Gn, Champion Hill and gains Forest Hill, Rye Lane, Peckham; Camberwell loses Rye Lane, Peckham and gains Champion Hill, Goose Gn. In this arrangement Camberwell and Dulwich & Peckham are not particularly compact, but on the plus side they do not divide the communities they're named after. The 'New Cross spur' is transferred to a redrawn Lewisham N with Brockley, Crofton Pk, Lewisham C, Hither Gn, Lee Gn with the rest forming Lewisham S (as YL has it except exchanging the Greens of Rushey and Hither).

Lewisham North - 76544

Lewisham South - 73631

Dulwich and Peckham - 71732

Camberwell - 71049

[islington]

Feb 3, 2021 21:42:01 GMT YL said:

Perhaps this is a little better than what I had before for that Southwark to Bexley group (map also shows 3 seats in Lambeth):


1. Bexleyheath & Crayford
2. Old Bexley & Sidcup (unchanged after ward re-alignment)
3. Erith & Thamesmead
4. Eltham
5. Greenwich & Blackheath
6. Lewisham Brockley
7. Dulwich & Peckham
8. Lewisham South
9. West Norwood
10. Camberwell & Borough
11. Bermondsey & Deptford Park
12. Vauxhall
13. Streatham

I imagine there are some flaws which as someone who has never lived in London I just don't see, as well as some which I do...

Right, I've been tinkering further because I really like the Southwark end of YL's map but I prefer my version further east.

So, trying to combine the two, I suggest keeping the borough of Southwark as YL has it but Telegraph Hill should replace Evelyn as one of the two Lewisham wards bolstering the Bermondsey seat. This means the seat projects a long way south but it's worth it to avoid splitting Evelyn from Deptford. All the remaining seats can stay as per the map I posted earlier this morning.

Southwark and Camberwell - 76758

Dulwich and Peckham - 71720

Bermondsey - 76674 (You'd probably have to appease local feelings by adding 'Telegraph Hill' or (perhaps better) 'Hatcham' to the name.)

[kevinlarkin]

Trying to include Wandsworth, for which there are no reasonable standalone three seat options, but ended up doing unspeakable things to Streatham.

1	Erith & Thamesmead	76728
2	Eltham & Manor Lee	75425
3	Bexleyheath & Crayford	69948
4	Bexley & Sidcup	74317
5	Greenwich & Woolwich	69824
6	Lewisham East	76987
7	Dulwich & Forest Hill	74325
8	Camberwell & Peckham	71034
9	Deptford & Rotherhite	76717
10	Borough & Bermondsey	76416
11	Kennington & Herne Hill	76225
12	Battersea & Clapham North	70049
13	Tooting	74239
14	Putney	76668
15	Balham & Clapham South	73296
16	Norwood	71836

On second thoughts this is a minor improvement:

[islington]

The 3-seat Wandsworth is not unprecedentedly bad but obviously it would be great to avoid it. Crossing the boundary with Lambeth suggests itself as a possibility but, to be honest, I'm struggling to find a reasonable 6-seat arrangement for the two boroughs combined (basically, there are 41 wards so to fit in 6 seats you need one to comprise only 6 wards - and the only plausible candidates for this are the 'Wandsworth Riverside' seat we were trying to avoid in the first place or a Battersea seat extending into the middle of Brixton).

But chucking a Merton ward into the mix makes life a lot easier. You can keep the four Streatham wards together, plus the Hills of Gypsy and Knight's and either Furzedown or Bedford; this then allows a seat that actually keeps the whole of Brixton together (plus Herne Hill, Thurlow Pk and Thornton); the six northern wards of Lambeth then combine with Nine Elms; which allows a very decent Battersea & Clapham seat.

It may or may not have adverse consequences in Merton, of course.

[kevinlarkin]

Feb 4, 2021 17:18:55 GMT islington said:

The 3-seat Wandsworth is not unprecedentedly bad but obviously it would be great to avoid it. Crossing the boundary with Lambeth suggests itself as a possibility but, to be honest I'm struggling to find a reasonable 6-seat arrangement for the two boroughs combined (basically, there are 41 wards so to fit in 6 seats you need one to comprise only 6 wards - and the only plausible candidates for this are the 'Wandsworth Riverside' seat we were trying to avoid in the first place or a Battersea seat extending into the middle of Brixton.

But chucking a Merton ward into the mix makes life a lot easier. You can keep the four Streatham wards together, plus the Hills of Gypsy and Knight's and either Furzedown or Bedford; this then allows a seat that actually keeps the whole of Brixton together (plus Herne Hill, Thurlow Pk and Thornton); the six northern wards of Lambeth then combine with Nine Elms; which allows a very decent Battersea & Clapham seat.

It may or may not have adverse consequences in Merton, of course.

If you are going to create a seat that includes the whole of Brixton then obviously you need the four wards that converge by Lambeth Town Hall and Herne Hill, but you also need Vassall, or at least the Myatt Fields part of it.

Other options for Wandsworth:


Possibly the least worst without ward splits.


Three out of four Fairfield polling districts transferred to Putney. Probably the best minimum change option. Parts of central Wandsworth including the Southside (formerly Arndale) shopping centre are already in Putney constituency.


A bit more ward splitting to take account of new boundaries that will almost certainly be used in local elections before the BCE reports in 2023. Putney gains two Earlsfield PDs and one from Wandsworth Common. Combined these approximate to the new 2-member Wandle ward. Battersea also gains a PD from Wandsworth Common and loses three from Balham to Tooting.

[islington]

So, to sum up progress on London so far, and focusing only on boroughs for which we have final maps and numbers (except for one stray ward from Merton), it's looking something like this.

(This includes my own take on east London, which is broadly similar to other posters' plans but with some differences of detail. Newham & TH is lifted straight from Pete Whitehead )

My initial reaction is that, despite a lot of boundary-crossings and an uncomfortable number of orphan wards, the overall map is not that bad. Let's see how it looks when we get the maps and numbers for the whole of London.

With the usual thanks to Pete Whitehead , YL , kevinlarkin , mattb and everyone else whose ideas I've drawn upon.

[evergreenadam]

Feb 5, 2021 12:16:25 GMT islington said:

So, to sum up progress on London so far, and focusing only on boroughs for which we have final maps and numbers (except for one stray ward from Merton), it's looking something like this.

(This includes my own take on east London, which is broadly similar to other posters' plans but with some differences of detail. Newham & TH is lifted straight from Pete Whitehead )

My initial reaction is that, despite a lot of boundary-crossings and an uncomfortable number of orphan wards, the overall map is not that bad. Let's see how it looks when we get the maps and numbers for the whole of London.

With the usual thanks to Pete Whitehead , YL , kevinlarkin , mattb and everyone else whose ideas I've drawn upon.

Are there numbers and names for this proposed plan? I couldn’t find the post with the numbers/names for the south corner around Wandsworth and Lambeth.

[islington]

Sorry - for the avoidance of doubt here's the lot.

Tooting - 72257. Actually it will be more than this because the Merton ward (Graveney) has been made slightly bigger, but it will remain very comfortably within range.

Wandsworth and Putney -76668.

Battersea and Clapham - 75964.

Vauxhall - 74955.

Streatham - 69938. It's a great shame this has to take Bedford ward from Wandsworth. Furzedown would have been a lot better but it brings too few electors. On the plus side the seat keeps all four Streatham wards together. Note this is the third seat to cross the Lambeth/Wandsworth boundary.

Brixton - 76023. The only seat wholly in Lambeth and the first time for decades that there hasn't been a constituency boundary cutting right through the middle of Brixton.

Southwark and Camberwell - 76758.

Dulwich and Peckham - 71720.

Bermondsey and Hatcham - 76674.

Lewisham West - 72252.

Lewisham East - 71706.

Greenwich and Deptford - 76777.

Eltham - 75684.

Woolwich and Thamesmead - 72110.

Erith - 76413

Bexley and Sidcup - 74532.

Bethnal Green and Bow - 74648.

Stepney - 75958

Poplar and Canning Town - 75806.

West Ham - 70841.

East Ham - 70902.

Barking - 72317.

Dagenham and Hornchurch - 76299.

Upminster - 70809.

Romford - 76692.

Ilford North - 74251.

Ilford South - 74498. If preferred the Ilford seats can exchange Chadwell and Chadwell Hth for Cranbrook and Valentines.

Leyton and Wanstead - 72036.

Chingford and Woodford - 75727. This gets rid of the current boundary through the middle of Woodford.

Walthamstow - 70111. It would be possible to retain the current seat unchanged, but it would have the knock-on result of forcing the separation of South Woodford from Woodford.

[Pete Whitehead]

Hatcham ?

[islington]

The ancient parish of Deptford was mainly in Kent but Hatcham is the part that lay across the historic county boundary with Surrey. It's actually a remarkably close fit with the area covered by the wards of New Cross Gate and Telegraph Hill.

You can see it on the 1832 Boundary Commissioners' map here (you need to look closely, but the county boundary is shown on this map as the faint stippled line separating the Hatcham area from the rest of Deptford).

The name's not forgotten: it is used for a school in the area and some local businesses, and features in a couple of street names. It's such a good fit I thought I'd suggest it to represent the Lewisham element of the seat but if it's too obscure you could use 'Telegraph Hill' instead. 

[Pete Whitehead]

I'd probably use New Cross myself if I was going with that boundary, but that's very interesting. Never heard of that area and never knew that part of Deptford was in Surrey. There are often these odd anomalies, such as that Penge was also in Surrey at one point and was included in the Dulwich constituency from 1885 to 1918, though not included in the LCC area

[islington]

Well, at the risk of going off topic, when the LCC was set up in 1889 it had the exact boundaries of the Metropolitan Board of Works, which in turn covered the same area as the Bills of Mortality. And Penge was within the Bills because it was originally a detached part of the parish of Battersea.

In 1900 the boundaries of the LCC were tidied up and (among other changes) Penge was removed and placed in Kent.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

The boundaries of the Metropolitan Board of Works were themselves largely derived from the parishes which were required to send in weekly bills of mortality in order to check for the outbreak of plague in London. That practice started in Tudor times and the area was fixed in 1636.

[Pete Whitehead]

Muswell Hill was a detached part of Finsbury

[edgbaston]

Feb 6, 2021 23:24:23 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

The boundaries of the Metropolitan Board of Works were themselves largely derived from the parishes which were required to send in weekly bills of mortality in order to check for the outbreak of plague in London. That practice started in Tudor times and the area was fixed in 1636.

Wonderful nugget of information

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Feb 6, 2021 23:26:37 GMT Pete Whitehead said:

Muswell Hill was a detached part of Finsbury

The Knights Templars owned Finsbury, and also owned a small patch of land in Muswell Hill (just west of where Alexandra Palace is now).

It was a fairly irregular shaped area.

[Pete Whitehead]

I'm not sure anyone had considered this particular solution to the Islington/Hackney/Haringey arrangements



Well it does sort of get us back on topic..

[islington]

In parish terms it was a detached part of Clerkenwell. When the Parliamentary Borough of Finsbury was created in 1832 Clerkenwell was included but not the detached part (the 1832 legislation was surprisingly fastidious about avoiding a lot of (not all) detached parts). In 1885 Finsbury PB was drastically redrawn, still including Clerkenwell but this time there was nothing in the legislation to exclude the Muswell Hill exclave.

From 1832 to 1885 Finsbury was an undivided borough with 2 MPs. The redrawn 1885 version was split into three single-member divisions, with Clerkenwell, including the exclave, in the Finsbury Central division.