dundas
Non-Aligned
Hope Not Hate is Lumpen MI5
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Post by dundas on Aug 25, 2024 21:48:07 GMT
He hasn't. He's endorsed him, not joined his ticket. Thereby directly contradicting the second sentence of his Tweet. You're reading what you want to read rather than what has been written. |
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Post by timmullen on Aug 25, 2024 22:09:47 GMT
Thereby directly contradicting the second sentence of his Tweet. You're reading what you want to read rather than what has been written. No I’m not - there is no credible way you can translate “Our positions on certain fundamental issues, our approaches to governance, and our philosophies of leadership could not be farther apart” into an endorsement. His sole justification, the lie that can end the Russia-Ukraine war “within 24 hours” actually proves what many have argued that he is a useful idiot for the Putin regime. |
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dundas
Non-Aligned
Hope Not Hate is Lumpen MI5
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Post by dundas on Aug 25, 2024 22:22:37 GMT
You're reading what you want to read rather than what has been written. No I’m not - there is no credible way you can translate “Our positions on certain fundamental issues, our approaches to governance, and our philosophies of leadership could not be farther apart” into an endorsement. His sole justification, the lie that can end the Russia-Ukraine war “within 24 hours” actually proves what many have argued that he is a useful idiot for the Putin regime. Wasn't his only justification, he also argued that not allowing ballot access in New York and Trump's conviction in the same state were lawfare by the Democratic Party. Trump hasn't bragged about Operation Warpspeed in a while (because he was getting booed for it at rallies). Could this be one of the fundamental issues he was referring to. I sincerely doubt anyone who was going to vote Kennedy will be put off Trump because he's not hawkish enough on the conflict in the Donbasin. |
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Post by timmullen on Aug 25, 2024 22:36:22 GMT
No I’m not - there is no credible way you can translate “Our positions on certain fundamental issues, our approaches to governance, and our philosophies of leadership could not be farther apart” into an endorsement. His sole justification, the lie that can end the Russia-Ukraine war “within 24 hours” actually proves what many have argued that he is a useful idiot for the Putin regime. Wasn't his only justification, he also argued that not allowing ballot access in New York and Trump's conviction in the same state were lawfare by the Democratic Party. Trump hasn't bragged about Operation Warpspeed in a while (because he was getting booed for it at rallies). Could this be one of the fundamental issues he was referring to. I sincerely doubt anyone who was going to vote Kennedy will be put off Trump because he's not hawkish enough on the conflict in the Donbasin. That goes even further from justifying your accusation that I was reading what I wanted to read into Kennedy’s Tweet; blaming actions in New York on the Democratic Party may make them unfit to govern but it in no way, shape or form alters the reasons he stated in the Tweet why he could not support Trump. Engaging in debate with people mangling the English language beyond recognition, and then shifting the goalposts in an futile attempt to ignore their prior silliness has got me into trouble on here before, I’m done. |
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dundas
Non-Aligned
Hope Not Hate is Lumpen MI5
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Post by dundas on Aug 25, 2024 22:45:56 GMT
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dundas
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Post by dundas on Aug 25, 2024 22:52:10 GMT
Wasn't his only justification, he also argued that not allowing ballot access in New York and Trump's conviction in the same state were lawfare by the Democratic Party. Trump hasn't bragged about Operation Warpspeed in a while (because he was getting booed for it at rallies). Could this be one of the fundamental issues he was referring to. I sincerely doubt anyone who was going to vote Kennedy will be put off Trump because he's not hawkish enough on the conflict in the Donbasin. That goes even further from justifying your accusation that I was reading what I wanted to read into Kennedy’s Tweet; blaming actions in New York on the Democratic Party may make them unfit to govern but it in no way, shape or form alters the reasons he stated in the Tweet why he could not support Trump. Engaging in debate with people mangling the English language beyond recognition, and then shifting the goalposts in an futile attempt to ignore their prior silliness has got me into trouble on here before, I’m done. You're overlooking that endorsement in this context is a binary choice and Kennedy only needs to disagree with Harris more than he disagrees with Trump to endorse him. I expect everyone calling Kennedy out on his hypocrisy is aware of this deep down. |
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Post by timmullen on Aug 25, 2024 23:30:34 GMT
That goes even further from justifying your accusation that I was reading what I wanted to read into Kennedy’s Tweet; blaming actions in New York on the Democratic Party may make them unfit to govern but it in no way, shape or form alters the reasons he stated in the Tweet why he could not support Trump. Engaging in debate with people mangling the English language beyond recognition, and then shifting the goalposts in an futile attempt to ignore their prior silliness has got me into trouble on here before, I’m done. You're overlooking that endorsement in this context is a binary choice and Kennedy only needs to disagree with Harris more than he disagrees with Trump to endorse him. I expect everyone calling Kennedy out on his hypocrisy is aware of this deep down. No, because most of those “calling Kennedy out on his hypocrisy” have the intelligence and knowledge to know that he didn’t have to endorse anybody, he could simply have encouraged his supporters to vote their conscience, or he could have endorsed another third party candidate such as Cornell West (after all he’s supposedly an environmentalist) or Chase Oliver of the Libertarian Party who also believe in an immediate end of American support to Ukraine (although the fact they’d also end support for Israel might be problematic) and oppose mandatory vaccination. I don’t imagine most Trumpists have the intelligence to work that out do you. |
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dundas
Non-Aligned
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Post by dundas on Aug 26, 2024 6:01:02 GMT
You're overlooking that endorsement in this context is a binary choice and Kennedy only needs to disagree with Harris more than he disagrees with Trump to endorse him. I expect everyone calling Kennedy out on his hypocrisy is aware of this deep down. No, because most of those “calling Kennedy out on his hypocrisy” have the intelligence and knowledge to know that he didn’t have to endorse anybody, he could simply have encouraged his supporters to vote their conscience, or he could have endorsed another third party candidate such as Cornell West (after all he’s supposedly an environmentalist) or Chase Oliver of the Libertarian Party who also believe in an immediate end of American support to Ukraine (although the fact they’d also end support for Israel might be problematic) and oppose mandatory vaccination. I don’t imagine most Trumpists have the intelligence to work that out do you. Kennedy will outpoll both of those candidates even if he did them, it amuses me you think political pygmies such as these are on his level. His aim to do damage to the Democrats and everyone knows why. I am certainly not a Trump fan, but have always supported the Kennedys and were I American would lend him my vote due to RFK's endorsement. |
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Post by bigfatron on Aug 26, 2024 8:31:46 GMT
No, because most of those “calling Kennedy out on his hypocrisy” have the intelligence and knowledge to know that he didn’t have to endorse anybody, he could simply have encouraged his supporters to vote their conscience, or he could have endorsed another third party candidate such as Cornell West (after all he’s supposedly an environmentalist) or Chase Oliver of the Libertarian Party who also believe in an immediate end of American support to Ukraine (although the fact they’d also end support for Israel might be problematic) and oppose mandatory vaccination. I don’t imagine most Trumpists have the intelligence to work that out do you. Kennedy will outpoll both of those candidates even if he did them, it amuses me you think political pygmies such as these are on his level. His aim to do damage to the Democrats and everyone knows why. I am certainly not a Trump fan, but have always supported the Kennedys and were I American would lend him my vote due to RFK's endorsement. I think there is another important point here: Kennedy's campaign was substantially funded by Republican billionaires, as proven by donation records, with a clear view to ratfucking Biden. Because of his views, and because the Kennedy name doesn't have the pull on Democrats that it used to (certainly when the Kennedy in question is repudiated by the rest of the family), it turns out Kennedy was taking substantial votes off both sides in e.g. June, from Republicans who liked his anti-vax views and were looking for an alternative to Trump, and from Democrats who wanted an alternative to an ageing Biden. Once Biden was replaced by Harris most of the Dem support swung back behind Harris, but the Republican support didn't revert to Trump. As soon as it became apparent that Kennedy was hurting Trump more than the Dems, his major donors - all Republican - stopped donating, and his campaign ran out of funds. That's why he's pulled out, not because of NY taking him off the ballot. And he's endorsed Trump because Trump's campaign have offered him a job in a putative Trump administration, no doubt at the behest of those same Republican mega-donors. The guy has been for hire to the Republicans for the last year, it's not really a surprise he's carried on in the same vein... |
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stb12
Top Poster
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Post by stb12 on Aug 26, 2024 10:04:18 GMT
This probably comes from me not being a political partisan and politics has never played much of a part in my family and friends life, but I do feel a bit uncomfortable with the way the Kennedy family is responding to RFK Jr
It’s obviously not a surprise that they disagree with him considering the family’s history with the Democratic Party and of course that was always going to be confirmed publicly, but especially for such close family the tone just feels very personal and I find it unedifying
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Post by johnloony on Aug 26, 2024 10:21:11 GMT
This probably comes from me not being a political partisan and politics has never played much of a part in my family and friends life, but I do feel a bit uncomfortable with the way the Kennedy family is responding to RFK Jr It’s obviously not a surprise that they disagree with him considering the family’s history with the Democratic Party and of course that was always going to be confirmed publicly, but especially for such close family the tone just feels very personal and I find it unedifying It’s almost as if having the name “Kennedy” means that it’s compulsory to have liberal left-wing views on politics. I remember a similar occasion when there was a daft opinion piece by a commentator / journalist (I forget who / what exactly) who, based on no evidence whatever, said that Tony Benn was bound to be upset that his granddaughter Emily Benn had done or said something (I can’t remember what) which was Blairite rather than hard-left. |
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Post by Merseymike on Aug 26, 2024 10:45:34 GMT
This probably comes from me not being a political partisan and politics has never played much of a part in my family and friends life, but I do feel a bit uncomfortable with the way the Kennedy family is responding to RFK Jr It’s obviously not a surprise that they disagree with him considering the family’s history with the Democratic Party and of course that was always going to be confirmed publicly, but especially for such close family the tone just feels very personal and I find it unedifying Effectively the Kennedys are liberal Democrats. A dynasty. They simply don't agree about Republicans. Or conservatives! |
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stb12
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Post by stb12 on Aug 26, 2024 10:52:01 GMT
This probably comes from me not being a political partisan and politics has never played much of a part in my family and friends life, but I do feel a bit uncomfortable with the way the Kennedy family is responding to RFK Jr It’s obviously not a surprise that they disagree with him considering the family’s history with the Democratic Party and of course that was always going to be confirmed publicly, but especially for such close family the tone just feels very personal and I find it unedifying Effectively the Kennedys are liberal Democrats. A dynasty. They simply don't agree about Republicans. Or conservatives! Well indeed, something along the lines of ‘We love and respect our brother as family, but we totally disagree with his decision to support Trump and our full endorsement is with Harris-Walz’ would have seemed fine. But it seems to have gone beyond that with themes of near enough calling him a traitor, I find that uncomfortable |
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Post by batman on Aug 26, 2024 11:02:06 GMT
This probably comes from me not being a political partisan and politics has never played much of a part in my family and friends life, but I do feel a bit uncomfortable with the way the Kennedy family is responding to RFK Jr It’s obviously not a surprise that they disagree with him considering the family’s history with the Democratic Party and of course that was always going to be confirmed publicly, but especially for such close family the tone just feels very personal and I find it unedifying It’s almost as if having the name “Kennedy” means that it’s compulsory to have liberal left-wing views on politics. I remember a similar occasion when there was a daft opinion piece by a commentator / journalist (I forget who / what exactly) who, based on no evidence whatever, said that Tony Benn was bound to be upset that his granddaughter Emily Benn had done or said something (I can’t remember what) which was Blairite rather than hard-left. I have read so, so many times on left-wing Facebook pages that Tony Benn would be turning in his grave at something that his son Hilary had said or done. The reply to this would be twofold : a ) Tony Benn was cremated, b ) he was extremely proud of all of his children even if he at times disagreed with them, and they in turn were proud of him. |
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stb12
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Post by stb12 on Aug 26, 2024 11:05:28 GMT
It’s almost as if having the name “Kennedy” means that it’s compulsory to have liberal left-wing views on politics. I remember a similar occasion when there was a daft opinion piece by a commentator / journalist (I forget who / what exactly) who, based on no evidence whatever, said that Tony Benn was bound to be upset that his granddaughter Emily Benn had done or said something (I can’t remember what) which was Blairite rather than hard-left. I have read so, so many times on left-wing Facebook pages that Tony Benn would be turning in his grave at something that his son Hilary had said or done. The reply to this would be twofold : a ) Tony Benn was cremated, b ) he was extremely proud of all of his children even if he at times disagreed with them, and they in turn were proud of him. If i remember correctly Alex Salmond tried that line after Hilary’s speech for the 2015 Syria air strikes debate |
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Post by johnloony on Aug 26, 2024 11:13:48 GMT
It’s almost as if having the name “Kennedy” means that it’s compulsory to have liberal left-wing views on politics. I remember a similar occasion when there was a daft opinion piece by a commentator / journalist (I forget who / what exactly) who, based on no evidence whatever, said that Tony Benn was bound to be upset that his granddaughter Emily Benn had done or said something (I can’t remember what) which was Blairite rather than hard-left. I have read so, so many times on left-wing Facebook pages that Tony Benn would be turning in his grave at something that his son Hilary had said or done. The reply to this would be twofold : a ) Tony Benn was cremated, b ) he was extremely proud of all of his children even if he at times disagreed with them, and they in turn were proud of him. I suppose that’s the far-left version of a hereditary monarchy: the descendants, even down to the zillionth generation, of the Holy Founder of Leftyism, have a solemn and eternal duty to remain faithful to every detail of his thinking, or else be denounced as a heretic and cast out into the wilderness of bourgeois decadence and degenerate backsliding. Thusly Hilary Benn and Emily Benn are the Duke of Windsor who damaged the monarchy and caused wailing and anguish among the lefties yea even u to the next century. |
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Post by batman on Aug 26, 2024 11:19:25 GMT
That's basically right, although of course Tony Benn "betrayed" his own principles as he got older. In 1955, for example, he supported Hugh Gaitskell in the Labour Party leadership election. 20 years later he was seen as the spiritual leader of the left faction in the party.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 38,823
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Post by The Bishop on Aug 26, 2024 11:27:13 GMT
I think it is fairly well established that one prominent left winger once slagged off Hillary in Tony's presence, and Benn Snr responded by not talking to him for several months - and tearing a strip off the miscreant when he finally did.
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Post by timmullen on Aug 26, 2024 11:53:41 GMT
I think the schism within the family is much deeper than just his endorsement of Trump, which has just brought long standing differences into the forefront of media coverage.
He’s one of the only family members who still argues that the government carried out the assassination of JFK (hence Trump’s pledge to release government papers on the assassination), his anti MMR vaccine stance, and false link with autism, angered the wing of his family who were maintaining his sister’s support of the US Special Olympics and surrounding mental disabilities (as opposed to illnesses). There was also a huge family outcry in 2020 when he suggested in a magazine interview that Covid was a government invention targeted at people of colour (a claim that he later only partly walked back).
If you look back over maybe the last decade or so he seems to have alienated different parts of the family at different times, and his endorsement of Trump has been the equivalent of ripping the dressing off an open wound.
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Post by jamesdoyle on Aug 26, 2024 12:06:13 GMT
I thought Emily Benn was very nice when she stood in EW&A in 2010. Is she still politically active?
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