Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Dec 5, 2020 11:11:34 GMT
Yes that’s pretty accurate. Some of it isn’t even illegal. Some of it goes on most of the time, but rarely does it make a difference, and almost never in Britain is it part of a sustained political campaign, but rather individual initiative. Personation, which some people seem obsessed about, is rare because carries danger. Most prosecuted cases of fraud relate to care homes. In the US context personation must be close to non-existent as most states have some form of voter ID requirements.
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Post by grahammurray on Dec 5, 2020 11:13:23 GMT
Which is just another massive hole in the argument. Yes. "if" you have those involved and it would have to be "only if". This is where most crazed conspiracy theories fall down. The number of people that would all have to be complicit in the fraud is just implausible. And to double down on the implausibility, that among the large number involved, nobody blabs either through ill will or carelessness. To double down on the doubling down, the people involved in the count are not party loyalists and some of them are employed just for the one night. This vast conspiracy would have to involve all of them pulling in the same direction and then, as you say, keeping silent about it.
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
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Post by Richard Allen on Dec 5, 2020 11:22:12 GMT
And to double down on the implausibility, that among the large number involved, nobody blabs either through ill will or carelessness. To double down on the doubling down, the people involved in the count are not party loyalists and some of them are employed just for the one night. This vast conspiracy would have to involve all of them pulling in the same direction and then, as you say, keeping silent about it. Keeping silent while knowing that they would be lavishly rewarded for providing solid evidence of fraud.
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Post by grahammurray on Dec 5, 2020 11:29:10 GMT
To double down on the doubling down, the people involved in the count are not party loyalists and some of them are employed just for the one night. This vast conspiracy would have to involve all of them pulling in the same direction and then, as you say, keeping silent about it. Keeping silent while knowing that they would be lavishly rewarded for providing solid evidence of fraud. It makes perfect sense.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Dec 5, 2020 12:04:33 GMT
But all this really shows is just how VAST the conspiracy actually is!! North Korea were shipping in boatloads of fake ballots, you know??
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Post by gwynthegriff on Dec 5, 2020 12:46:28 GMT
Yes GB elections are wide open to all kinds of fraud. If you have those involved in handling the ballots (especially postal ballots) in on the fix then really the sky is the limit. You clearly know as much about postal vote verification and later counting as everything else. It isn't done in secret (you also share that ignorance with elements of the hard-left).
I got into a (pointless) twitter spat with some corbynistas earlier in the year who were convinced they were robbed of the 2019 GE by a conspiracy of the Conservative Party, the BBC's political correspondent and a software company. Their ignorance of the process was spectacular.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Dec 5, 2020 12:50:13 GMT
Look, I want to help @kipper1 who has clearly never been to an election count in his life and tell him just how we, those of us who have been involved, rig (or more often do not rig) elections It's done at the vote casting point. You can do it best in areas where you are utterly dominant, which often makes it irrelevant. A few more hundred onto your four-figure majority. But if you have a dominant area, in a big electoral vote and that overall is going to be close, you can maybe sway the bit you have control over. If you are the boss of a nursing home or have influence over such a person, you can ensure that every single resident is signed up and that they all vote, and if need be that they have help to vote, by someone who knows how they would really want to vote even although they don't know which meal is next. If you have a fishing fleet or similar absent workforce, you can arrange proxy votes for those who will be at sea. Or might be at sea. Who knows. You can remind skippers of the importance of everyone filling in their proxy forms and giving them to the local councillor. If you have a cohort of Asian voters whose wives tend no to be seen in public you can ensure that they have postal votes and that their husband hands them into you so you can ensure they are counted. And you can maybe help him get his cousin into the country. Or certainly not hinder it. Did I say Asian? That was very imprecise. Guess what I meant. Or if you keep a close eye on the marked register, you can establish over time who rarely if ever votes and you can pop along and vote at the polling station on their behalf. This however is very labour intensive and carries an element of risk. You can keep an eye on the death notices locally and ensure that being dead does not prevent a person casting the vote they would have wished to In all these cases, this does not actually sway many votes, but it ups the turnout of your vote greatly and in safe seats is largely meaningless, but in big seats or PR can really make a difference, and when the difference is an £60k salary and six-figure package to employ another four people it matters. But really, by the time the votes are at the count, it's too damn late. For Donald, it's too damn late Yes that’s pretty accurate. Some of it isn’t even illegal. Some of it goes on most of the time, but rarely does it make a difference, and almost never in Britain is it part of a sustained political campaign, but rather individual initiative. Personation, which some people seem obsessed about, is rare because carries danger. Most prosecuted cases of fraud relate to care homes. This. Personation, in particular, is more practical in theory than in practice.
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Post by gwynthegriff on Dec 5, 2020 12:52:37 GMT
Which is just another massive hole in the argument. Yes. "if" you have those involved and it would have to be "only if". This is where most crazed conspiracy theories fall down. The number of people that would all have to be complicit in the fraud is just implausible. And to double down on the implausibility, that among the large number involved, nobody blabs either through ill will or carelessness. It would also require the complicity of quite senior council officers who would face the risk of losing their reputation, their career and their pension. For what?
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Post by gwynthegriff on Dec 5, 2020 13:24:24 GMT
It would also require the complicity of quite senior council officers who would face the risk of losing their reputation, their career and their pension. Again only with corruption that is non systemic If it's systemic corruption people will face the risk of losing their reputation, their career and their pension if they don't go along with it In a UK context (and outside potential issues in literally less than a handful of authorities) this is total tinfoil hat territory. In a US context it seems to require Republican Governors, Secretaries of State and the like to be fully signed-up to a Democrat conspiracy.
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Richard Allen
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Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
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Post by Richard Allen on Dec 5, 2020 13:39:51 GMT
Keeping silent while knowing that they would be lavishly rewarded for providing solid evidence of fraud. That's not how systemic corruption works People only get "lavishly rewarded" for providing solid evidence of non systemic corruption. The reward for providing solid evidence of systemic corruption is to be attacked, smeared and gaslighted. That's how it works in Nicaragua and Ukraine. Why would you expect the United States to be any different? Your idiocy really is boundless. Do you really think that Trump and his allies wouldn't be able to provide substantial rewards to anyone with solid evidence of fraud?
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john07
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Post by john07 on Dec 5, 2020 13:44:24 GMT
Trump's problem is that you can't keep the short grift going. He has to eventually walk away before it gets (even more) obvious. You would think that, but look at the US Televangelists - their flock stays loyal to the bitter end. Indeed. Even the likes of Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart survived sex scandals and continued with their ministry. It was a scandal with the church secretary in the case of Bakker and prostitutes for Swaggart. Bakker also had financial issues. I can see why Trump appeals to the televangelists!
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Post by grahammurray on Dec 5, 2020 13:46:12 GMT
That's not how systemic corruption works People only get "lavishly rewarded" for providing solid evidence of non systemic corruption. The reward for providing solid evidence of systemic corruption is to be attacked, smeared and gaslighted. That's how it works in Nicaragua and Ukraine. Why would you expect the United States to be any different? Your idiocy really is boundless. Do you really think that Trump and his allies wouldn't be able to provide substantial rewards to anyone with solid evidence of fraud? Indeed, Richard. Trump has offered huge rewards and clemency for anyone coming forward with evidence that they took part in vote fraud and as far as I know nobody has. The only people I have seen being attacked, smeared, threatened and vilified in the US on this matter are the ones pointing out there hasn't been widespread fraud. And the only ones convictes of minor fraud to date have been Trump supporters. No doubt even this in itself will be fed into the conspiracy mindset.
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Post by matureleft on Dec 5, 2020 13:49:41 GMT
You would think that, but look at the US Televangelists - their flock stays loyal to the bitter end. Indeed. Even the likes of Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart survived sex scandals and continued with their ministry. It was a scandal with the church secretary in the case of Bakker and prostitutes for Swaggart. Bakker also had financial issues. I can see why Trump appeals to the televangelists! The frequent response is to remind people of the Fall of Man and to state that God moves in mysterious ways, beyond human comprehension.
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john07
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Post by john07 on Dec 5, 2020 13:53:53 GMT
Again only with corruption that is non systemic If it's systemic corruption people will face the risk of losing their reputation, their career and their pension if they don't go along with it In a UK context (and outside potential issues in literally less than a handful of authorities) this is total tinfoil hat territory. In a US context it seems to require Republican Governors, Secretaries of State and the like to be fully signed-up to a Democrat conspiracy. And Republican controlled State Legislatures to approve rules on the use of postal votes in Pennsylvania and Michigan.
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ricmk
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Post by ricmk on Dec 5, 2020 13:55:39 GMT
There’s an odd parallel to planning decisions here.
One tell I’ve picked up is when objectors raise dozens of issues with an application. It almost always means they just don’t like it but have no defendable planning reasons to turn it down on. So you throw all sorts of mud at it, in the hope that something sticks. We have had a couple of classic examples recently for applications for Hindu groups in MK. Objections in left right and centre. Parking! Noise! Anti-social behaviour! Character of area! Building design! Drainage! Better sites! (I.e. not near me) for one of them, they withdrew from the site, the Scouts applied for very similar use and it sailed through planning with no such objections.
A sobering lesson on indirect discrimination and racism, and just last month an officer recommendation to approve the Hindu meeting place was turned down (permission refused) at committee in the face of public protest.
What’s this got to do with the US? The sheer amount of inconsistency of the fraud claims. We need to stop counting in Pennsylvania and Georgia, but count every vote in Arizona and Nevada because reasons. The issue is voting machines / North Korea shipping votes in / people who’ve moved out / people who’ve died / hanging chads / signature approval processes / etc / etc.
From a distance it’s so obviously people struggling to accept the outcome (as a Lib Dem, Remainer, and Clinton supporter in 2016 I have plenty of experience of this) and are throwing hope into every possible Avenue suspending critical faculties that you would normally employ. The sheer range is the tell that nothing is sticking. I’m sorry - losing sucks and it’s hard. The independent observers have found the process secure by international standards. There is still time to take a deep breath and step back. Now would be a good time.
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Post by manchesterman on Dec 5, 2020 14:02:34 GMT
Your idiocy really is boundless. Do you really think that Trump and his allies wouldn't be able to provide substantial rewards to anyone with solid evidence of fraud? Indeed, Richard. Trump has offered huge rewards and clemency for anyone coming forward with evidence that they took part in vote fraud and as far as I know nobody has. The only people I have seen being attacked, smeared, threatened and vilified in the US on this matter are the ones pointing out there hasn't been widespread fraud. And the only ones convictes of minor fraud to date have been Trump supporters. No doubt even this in itself will be fed into the conspiracy mindset. They will no doubt argue that the trump fraudsters were "planted" to distract from the far greater number of Biden fraudsters..
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European Lefty
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Post by European Lefty on Dec 5, 2020 14:05:35 GMT
You clearly know as much about postal vote verification and later counting as everything else. It isn't done in secret (you also share that ignorance with elements of the hard-left).
I got into a (pointless) twitter spat with some corbynistas earlier in the year who were convinced they were robbed of the 2019 GE by a conspiracy of the Conservative Party, the BBC's political correspondent and a software company. Their ignorance of the process was spectacular.In fairness this applies across the spectrum because very few people have ever attended a count
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Post by manchesterman on Dec 5, 2020 14:07:53 GMT
That's not how systemic corruption works People only get "lavishly rewarded" for providing solid evidence of non systemic corruption. The reward for providing solid evidence of systemic corruption is to be attacked, smeared and gaslighted. That's how it works in Nicaragua and Ukraine. Why would you expect the United States to be any different? Your idiocy really is boundless. Do you really think that Trump and his allies wouldn't be able to provide substantial rewards to anyone with solid evidence of fraud? Im actually surprised that some chancer hasnt come forward and "invented" some sort of evidence of fraud so that they could get their hands on a nice fat payout from trump!! Don't be surprised if it does happen,
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Post by gwynthegriff on Dec 5, 2020 17:45:00 GMT
I got into a (pointless) twitter spat with some corbynistas earlier in the year who were convinced they were robbed of the 2019 GE by a conspiracy of the Conservative Party, the BBC's political correspondent and a software company. Their ignorance of the process was spectacular.In fairness this applies across the spectrum because very few people have ever attended a count Indeed, but if you're going to post lengthy screeds on the subject it might be useful to have, for example, an awareness that compiling the electoral register is a different process to counting the votes (which was one of the things they conflated).
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Post by finsobruce on Dec 5, 2020 18:10:15 GMT
Billy Graham - eat your heart out! Billy Graham wasn't a grifter. He was preaching what he really believed in the hope that more people would come to share those beliefs. You want an example like Jimmy Swaggert or Peter Popoff. Popoff (what a great name) inspired the film "Leap of Faith" which also became a Broadway musical. Although if you want quality literature "Elmer Gantry" is the place to go.
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