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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 19, 2020 8:00:26 GMT
I have been looking at the further out old prints of Gloucester and it seems to me that the gates on the north, east and south side were small piercings in the inner line of the original medieval walls but the west gate seems to have been a much more elaborate barbican-like structure down towards the river, maybe in part a flood defence as well as keeping out the heathen nation lying out there to the west? So Westgate street seems to extend much further than the three equivalents? Are there any traces of the original walls surviving at Gloucester? I am thinking of the original walled cities of England that I know- Canterbury and York must be among the best preserved (and somebody will no doubt want to say not the only anachronism associated with those two) Exeter? Chester? What others? And ( to get back on theme) what is the original derivation of the word "ward" - doen't it mean an enclosed space as in the walled area of a city? Gloucester's raison d'être is that it was the lowest bridgeable point on the Severn (before suspension bridges) so the Westgate, leading to the bridge, must always have been crucial and there was a barbican at the river crossing. The medieval castle was on that side, where the jail is now, presumably for the same reason. I imagine the town was set back a bit from the river due to bogginess/flooding hence the need for an extended Westgate I don't think it was from fear of marauding Welsh, I'm not aware of any Welsh incursions in the later middle ages; militarily, the boot was generally on the other foot and Gloucester castle, being the residence of the sheriff, was where troops were mustered prior to expeditions into south Wales. And the battle of Tewkesbury (1471) was fought there because the Lancastrians couldn't get across the Severn (to meet the Tudors) as Gloucester was held against them. So I think control of both the crossing and perhaps of river trade up and downstream, possibly tolls and customs more than military, was probably the point rather than defence as such. I've never seen any traces of the walls although there are plenty of old buildings, some medieval. The wikipedia entry for Gloucester Castle link shows John Speed's 1610 map of Gloucester in which the fortifications are clearly post-medieval artillery platforms - quite rare in England, I think. (Gloucester withstood a determined Royalist siege in the Civil War so they were presumably in good nick.) They would have been massive earthworks so deliberately or not would act as flood defences. I suspect the medieval walls were demolished when they were put up. (Similar fortifications on the continent are the origin of boulevards - broad streets circling the old city centre; it is a shame Gloucester didn't inherit a set!) PS I believe that ward/yard/garden/guardian/guard are all related words due to interchangeability of w, y and g in Anglo-Saxon, presumably based on a linked concept of enclosure and protection. |
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on May 19, 2020 8:10:23 GMT
The 4 Gloucester gates were all definitely gates in the city wall. The lack of a western side to Gloucester is due to this being the flood plain around the Severn, which also included much of the land on the western side of the river. In medieval times, the river ran further east, so that the town of Gloucester developed on the river's banks, and the west gate led directly onto the river crossing point. As this was the route to Wales, it was particularly heavily defended, so the choice of Westgate as the ward name for the city centre is probably due to its historic importance to the city. No no no, surely it just broke off in a storm and drifted away ... |
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Post by John Chanin on May 19, 2020 8:35:21 GMT
The 4 Gloucester gates were all definitely gates in the city wall. The lack of a western side to Gloucester is due to this being the flood plain around the Severn, which also included much of the land on the western side of the river. In medieval times, the river ran further east, so that the town of Gloucester developed on the river's banks, and the west gate led directly onto the river crossing point. As this was the route to Wales, it was particularly heavily defended, so the choice of Westgate as the ward name for the city centre is probably due to its historic importance to the city. No no no, surely it just broke off in a storm and drifted away ... Got bored I assume..... |
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Post by yellowperil on May 19, 2020 8:36:09 GMT
I have been looking at the further out old prints of Gloucester and it seems to me that the gates on the north, east and south side were small piercings in the inner line of the original medieval walls but the west gate seems to have been a much more elaborate barbican-like structure down towards the river, maybe in part a flood defence as well as keeping out the heathen nation lying out there to the west? So Westgate street seems to extend much further than the three equivalents? Are there any traces of the original walls surviving at Gloucester? I am thinking of the original walled cities of England that I know- Canterbury and York must be among the best preserved (and somebody will no doubt want to say not the only anachronism associated with those two) Exeter? Chester? What others? And ( to get back on theme) what is the original derivation of the word "ward" - doen't it mean an enclosed space as in the walled area of a city? Gloucester's raison d'être is that it was the lowest bridgeable point on the Severn (before suspension bridges) so the Westgate, leading to the bridge, must always have been crucial and there was a barbican at the river crossing. The medieval castle was on that side, where the jail is now, presumably for the same reason. I imagine the town was set back a bit from the river due to bogginess/flooding hence the need for an extended Westgate I don't think it was from fear of marauding Welsh, I'm not aware of any Welsh incursions in the later middle ages; militarily, the boot was generally on the other foot and Gloucester castle, being the residence of the sheriff, was where troops were mustered prior to expeditions into south Wales. And the battle of Tewkesbury (1471) was fought there because the Lancastrians couldn't get across the Severn (to meet the Tudors) as Gloucester was held against them. So I think control of both the crossing and perhaps of river trade up and downstream, possibly tolls and customs more than military, was probably the point rather than defence as such. I've never seen any traces of the walls although there are plenty of old buildings, some medieval. The wikipedia entry for Gloucester Castle link shows John Speed's 1610 map of Gloucester in which the fortifications are clearly post-medieval artillery platforms - quite rare in England, I think. (Gloucester withstood a determined Royalist siege in the Civil War so they were presumably in good nick.) They would have been massive earthworks so deliberately or not would act as flood defences. I suspect the medieval walls were demolished when they were put up. (Similar fortifications on the continent are the origin of boulevards - broad streets circling the old city centre; it is a shame Gloucester didn't inherit a set!) PS I believe that ward/yard/garden/guardian/guard are all related words due to interchangeability of w, y and g in Anglo-Saxon, presumably based on a linked concept of enclosure and protection. I thought the Speed map shows the medieval wall mostly still in place and gates still in situ on the three sides, other than the west, all inside those later fortifications- so maybe removed later than 1610 without as you say getting the boulevards. Canterbury got a sort of boulevard ring road on the eastern side only outside the surviving wall and known as Rhodaus. On the western side, where the wall didn't survive intact, there is less of a boulevard effect. It might suggest actually retaining a wall helps to establish a major road route outside the line of the wall. |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on May 19, 2020 9:30:25 GMT
Gloucester's raison d'être is that it was the lowest bridgeable point on the Severn (before suspension bridges) so the Westgate, leading to the bridge, must always have been crucial and there was a barbican at the river crossing. The medieval castle was on that side, where the jail is now, presumably for the same reason. I imagine the town was set back a bit from the river due to bogginess/flooding hence the need for an extended Westgate I don't think it was from fear of marauding Welsh, I'm not aware of any Welsh incursions in the later middle ages; militarily, the boot was generally on the other foot and Gloucester castle, being the residence of the sheriff, was where troops were mustered prior to expeditions into south Wales. And the battle of Tewkesbury (1471) was fought there because the Lancastrians couldn't get across the Severn (to meet the Tudors) as Gloucester was held against them. So I think control of both the crossing and perhaps of river trade up and downstream, possibly tolls and customs more than military, was probably the point rather than defence as such. I've never seen any traces of the walls although there are plenty of old buildings, some medieval. The wikipedia entry for Gloucester Castle link shows John Speed's 1610 map of Gloucester in which the fortifications are clearly post-medieval artillery platforms - quite rare in England, I think. (Gloucester withstood a determined Royalist siege in the Civil War so they were presumably in good nick.) They would have been massive earthworks so deliberately or not would act as flood defences. I suspect the medieval walls were demolished when they were put up. (Similar fortifications on the continent are the origin of boulevards - broad streets circling the old city centre; it is a shame Gloucester didn't inherit a set!) PS I believe that ward/yard/garden/guardian/guard are all related words due to interchangeability of w, y and g in Anglo-Saxon, presumably based on a linked concept of enclosure and protection. I thought the Speed map shows the medieval wall mostly still in place and gates still in situ on the three sides, other than the west, all inside those later fortifications- so maybe removed later than 1610 without as you say getting the boulevards. Canterbury got a sort of boulevard ring road on the eastern side only outside the surviving wall and known as Rhodaus. On the western side, where the wall didn't survive intact, there is less of a boulevard effect. It might suggest actually retaining a wall helps to establish a major road route outside the line of the wall. Looking again you are quite right - I suppose I was concentrating on that western side to much when looking - but I also see that the print Wiki has reproduced says "the fortifications are from Hall and Pinnell's map", whenever that was made, so I'm not sure what the implications are! Town walls used to require upkeep so I imagine once superseded by new ones they would tend to fall down and be robbed for stone. (There's a slightly odd book - "A Fool and his Money" - by Ann Wroe - based on the records of Rodez in C14th France, which sheds light on how walled towns operated - obviously the Hundred Years War was on so although not attacked in the period maintaining and defending them was a constant worry, plus there was a wall down the middle of the place as one half belonged to the bishop and the other to a count - quite a common thing in France apparently though I don't know any English equivalent) |
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Post by froome on May 19, 2020 10:02:19 GMT
A little bit more Gloucester history...
The first Roman fortress built there was actually at Kingsholm, partly where the rugby ground now stands. This was built in the mid to late 40s AD close to the most practical crossing point of the river at the time.
This was replaced in about AD67 by the fortress that was built in what is now the city centre. It was 43 acres in extent, and built as a temporary structure, as in AD75 the Roman legion based there were moved on to Isca Silurum (Caerleon). That legion then moved to Wroxeter and finally settled in Chester. A colonia, a community of traders, then settled around the fortress, with some evidence that some of the soldiers remained there, and by the second century AD the colonia was a thriving town of about 120-180 acres in extent, with piped water supply and evidence of a port on the river bank.
After the Romans had left, the Hwicce tribe took the town and by the 10th century the Saxon town had been refortressed and replanned, with a street layout that can be seen to this day. Before the Norman Conquest, Gloucester was one of the three towns where the king met with the Great Council, these rotating with London and Winchester. After the Conquest, the king commissioned the Domesday Book while on a visit to Gloucester, and it remained one of England's most important towns for many centuries.
Much of Roman Gloucester remains, but is buried beneath the present shopping centre. However, a small part can be visited at the Eastgate, and can be seen from the street level, as a glass roof has been put over the remains there.
The New Inn, which I would also recommend, was built between 1430 and 1450, to replace an earlier inn built a hundred years before. It was built to accommodate the growing numbers of travellers to the town, and had 40 rooms which could sleep 200 people, and was said to be the largest inn in the country at that time. It is now much smaller, but still exceedingly impressive, and feels like a step back 600 years as soon as you enter its courtyard.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 10:13:51 GMT
For all that parts of Gloucester can only be described as "grim", it's a must for anyone with an interest in history or archaeology. As well as the cathedral and the roman ruins, you can visit several historic churches, including a very interesting Saxon ruin, the folk museum and the city museum, and the city centre has several wooden buildings surviving from the 16th and 17th centuries, although these have been repurposed, in one case as a costa coffee. Assuming you don't end up spending all day in the cathedral.
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on May 19, 2020 11:52:27 GMT
I have been looking at the further out old prints of Gloucester and it seems to me that the gates on the north, east and south side were small piercings in the inner line of the original medieval walls but the west gate seems to have been a much more elaborate barbican-like structure down towards the river, maybe in part a flood defence as well as keeping out the heathen nation lying out there to the west? The original West Gate was higher up, pretty much immediately outside where the main entrance to Gloucestershire Shire Hall is now (presumably not a coincidence). The Normans did not rebuild the Roman wall of Gloucester completely, and its entire western side seems to have fallen into disuse by the time that the castle (pre-Domesday) and cathedral (foundation stone laid 1089) were placed exactly on two of the four corners. The South and East gates straightforwardly always refer to the same places as the Roman ones, but there was also the Almesham Postern Gate (in the North-East corner of the Roman town), from which point the Norman wall ran north (rather than west) along Market Parade to what is sometimes qualified as the Outer or Lower North Gate on the London Road, and then continued around to the Alvin Gate (where the stub end of Hare Lane dog-legs onto Skinner Street), to join up with the northern side of the monastic enclosure along the River Twyver. The Alvin Gate is perhaps the most obscure of the lot, as it was destroyed in the Civil War, and then Worcester Street was "improved" in the 18th (or early 19th?) century 1822. Despite the northern side of the Roman wall being about as surplus to requirements as the western one, it seems to have survived the mediaeval period, with the Inner/Upper North Gate being used as the town gaol until it was replaced by the Castle at some point in the early Tudor period. And this general picture is certainly what John Leland found in the early 18th century, despite large parts of the walls having allegedly been slighted after the Restoration of the Monarchy – "Glocestre where yt is not sufficiently defended by Severn ys waulled". There were in Leland's time four bridges on Westgate Street/Over Causeway – in the outward direction, these were: 1) the Foreign Bridge, over the Old Severn, now completely silted up (where Royal Oak Road now crosses Westgate Street) 2) a minor bridge over a drainage ditch 3) Westgate Bridge, over what is now the East Branch of the Severn – this is the fortified bridge (built under Henry II and rebuilt under Henry VIII) you'll find in old engravings, and confusingly the gate on it gets referred to as the West Gate, despite being nowhere near the original one 4) Over Bridge, over the West Branch of the Severn In terms of defending against flooding and barbarians, that's what a quay and all those marshy islands beyond were for. Although I'm sure I've read somewhere about one side or other in the Second Barons' War sneaking into Gloucester from the Forest of Dean disguised as wool traders. So maybe a large part of it relied on the lack of cunning of barbarians too... |
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Post by 🏴☠️ Neath West 🏴☠️ on May 19, 2020 12:25:16 GMT
Are there any traces of the original walls surviving at Gloucester? Yes, although they're on private property – the back wall of the back gardens on the corner of Brunswick Street and Parliament Street is all that remains above ground. There'll be stuff in cellars as well though. |
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Post by yellowperil on May 19, 2020 13:33:19 GMT
It really seems as though I ought to give Gloucester a visit.
When it becomes safe to do , and that has to include safe enough for Eileen to go back into a care home for a period of respite, if we ever get there.
60 years since last visiting is a long time to wait, and whatever else there is I know I loved the Cathedral.It sounds very much as though it ought to be my sort of place.
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Post by November_Rain on May 23, 2020 21:17:03 GMT
Thank you for the write-up of Gloucester  It is a seat we could realistically win back. We did put a good candidate up in 2019 who did a great job defending our colours, and I think it's something that can be achieved but unsure when to be fair. Lovely city - visited twice last year; once for my Mum's birthday (we even went down Cromwell Street!) and I went with my Mum and one of my nephews on the hottest day of the year! |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2020 19:54:34 GMT
Thank you for the write-up of Gloucester It is a seat we could realistically win back. We did put a good candidate up in 2019 who did a great job defending our colours, and I think it's something that can be achieved but unsure when to be fair. Lovely city - visited twice last year; once for my Mum's birthday (we even went down Cromwell Street!) and I went with my Mum and one of my nephews on the hottest day of the year! It's going to take a while but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. The tourist attractions of the city are nice, personally I prefer Bristol but here is nice for being quieter. That said, some bits are utterly grim. |
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Post by November_Rain on May 24, 2020 20:03:10 GMT
Thank you for the write-up of Gloucester It is a seat we could realistically win back. We did put a good candidate up in 2019 who did a great job defending our colours, and I think it's something that can be achieved but unsure when to be fair. Lovely city - visited twice last year; once for my Mum's birthday (we even went down Cromwell Street!) and I went with my Mum and one of my nephews on the hottest day of the year! It's going to take a while but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. The tourist attractions of the city are nice, personally I prefer Bristol but here is nice for being quieter. That said, some bits are utterly grim. I think a couple of elections, and it'll be red again. It just takes time, and who knows with how things are at the moment. I like the Gloucester Quays and all that new development area - does add some character, but even the grim parts of the town centre (and that street which does give you the shudders when you walk down it!) have some character, Bristol is indeed better, but I think every city and town has it's good and bad points. Here in Weston the beach and a couple of parks is our selling point!! |
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Post by Robert Waller on Jun 21, 2021 20:25:16 GMT
2011 Census
Age 65+ 14.4% 493/650
Owner-occupied 65.5% 366/650
Private rented 18.1% 166/650
Social rented 14.3% 385/650
White 88.6% 462/650
Black 3.1% 137/650
Asian 5.0% 227/650
Managerial & professional 27.7%
Routine & Semi-routine 30.2%
Degree level 21.8% 442/650
No qualifications 22.2% 358/650
Students 7.2% 270/650
2021 Census
Owner occupied 63.4% 343/573
Private rented 22.1% 157/573
Social rented 14.5% 310/573
White 84.4%
Black 3.8%
Asian 6.6%
Managerial & professional 28.9% 377/573
Routine & Semi-routine 28.7% 124/573
Degree level 27.2% 417/573
No qualifications 18.7% 241/573
General Election 2019: Gloucester
Party Candidate Votes % ±%
Conservative Richard Graham 29,159 54.2 +3.9
Labour Co-op Fran Boait 18,882 35.1 -5.0
Liberal Democrats Rebecca Trimnell 4,338 8.1 +3.1
Green Michael Byfield 1,385 2.6 +1.2
C Majority 10,277 19.1 +8.9
Turnout 53,764 66.1 +0.9
Registered electors 81,332 -2.0
Conservative hold
Swing 4.5 Lab to C
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