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Post by batman on Mar 15, 2023 22:13:49 GMT
This is all old news, but perhaps relevant to the present discussion. Jeremy Corbyn is a nice bloke, very sincere, not at all motivated by power. I knew him as we were both active as young men in the London Labour Party of the 1970s and 1980s. I would perhaps be considered as "left" although this signifier is in my view is largely obsolete. I had no time at all for "new Labour" and left the party in the 1990s. However I did not vote for Corbyn in 2015 (as a registered supporter, having respect for Miliband, and voted Labour in 2015 for the first time in over 20 years). This was because he was not leadership material, and probably never really wanted to be leader. However I was hopeful afterwards, not that Corbyn himself had new ideas, but that a change in direction for the Labour Party would generate them. And it did, but slowly, and around McDonnell mostly. The attacks on Corbyn were mostly unfair, and there is of course nothing unusual in that. It is in the nature of the coarse politics that we have and which turn so many people off. However his particular take on international affairs had nothing to commend it, and I can agree this was a significant negative. It also was not representative of the Labour Party in general or the "left" in particular. The idea that he was anti-semitic is ridiculous. He is in some ways too unworldly to recognise hate, and like many young people blind to historically anti-semitic tropes, which are irrelevant to modern Britain, where the level of anti-semitism outside parts of the Muslim community is effectively zero. Wish your second paragraph were true. However, the last phrase in particular just isn't. The number of antisemitic attacks is sharply on the rise and it most certainly is not all Muslims by any stretch of the imagination. Antisemitism comes in many forms, ranging from the very mild to the genocidal. Of course Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have a hatred of all Jewish people, and very obviously is not genocidal in his outlook towards Jews, but I cannot agree that "the idea that he was antisemitic is ridiculous". His "hand of Israel" comment alone is troubling and that isn't the only thing on his record by any means. He is capable of recognising some forms of antisemitism - for example he knew that Ken Livingstone was offensive & wrong, and that Pete Gregson's banner outside Labour Party Conference was a disgrace - and is nothing like say David Miller or Chris Williamson whose entire world is Jew-obsessed. But there are forms of it he is and long has been blind to, and ignorance, especially in the case of someone who has attained the position of Leader of the Opposition, is not defensible. |
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Post by mattbewilson on Mar 16, 2023 20:58:01 GMT
I'm never quite sure how helpful a debate like this is. If people on either side haven't already changed their view on this I don't think their likely to change their view. Everyone's consumption of information around this is different.
If I was to say anything it would be that I would say I'm still ignorant and blind. I do see troupes online and in person. Today a trainer said to me 'Hitler did many good things'. I understand from a meme online that this is a typical trope and by not challenging it I'm enabling it. Ironically the training was on challenging poor practice.
I also would say is as I understand it, anti semitism is a hate crime and I would hope people are prosecuted for it. Whether it be genocidal obsessions or less obvious tropes.
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Post by rockefeller on Mar 29, 2023 7:39:01 GMT
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graham
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Post by graham on Mar 29, 2023 10:15:03 GMT
If he runs as an Independent , I expect Corbyn to pick up the bulk of the Green vote plus a big chunk of the Labour vote.Not difficult to see him polling 45%.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Mar 29, 2023 11:00:17 GMT
This is all old news, but perhaps relevant to the present discussion. Jeremy Corbyn is a nice bloke, very sincere, not at all motivated by power. I knew him as we were both active as young men in the London Labour Party of the 1970s and 1980s. I would perhaps be considered as "left" although this signifier is in my view is largely obsolete. I had no time at all for "new Labour" and left the party in the 1990s. However I did not vote for Corbyn in 2015 (as a registered supporter, having respect for Miliband, and voted Labour in 2015 for the first time in over 20 years). This was because he was not leadership material, and probably never really wanted to be leader. However I was hopeful afterwards, not that Corbyn himself had new ideas, but that a change in direction for the Labour Party would generate them. And it did, but slowly, and around McDonnell mostly. The attacks on Corbyn were mostly unfair, and there is of course nothing unusual in that. It is in the nature of the coarse politics that we have and which turn so many people off. However his particular take on international affairs had nothing to commend it, and I can agree this was a significant negative. It also was not representative of the Labour Party in general or the "left" in particular. The idea that he was anti-semitic is ridiculous. He is in some ways too unworldly to recognise hate, and like many young people blind to historically anti-semitic tropes, which are irrelevant to modern Britain, where the level of anti-semitism outside parts of the Muslim community is effectively zero. Wish your second paragraph were true. However, the last phrase in particular just isn't. The number of antisemitic attacks is sharply on the rise and it most certainly is not all Muslims by any stretch of the imagination. Antisemitism comes in many forms, ranging from the very mild to the genocidal. Of course Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have a hatred of all Jewish people, and very obviously is not genocidal in his outlook towards Jews, but I cannot agree that "the idea that he was antisemitic is ridiculous". His "hand of Israel" comment alone is troubling and that isn't the only thing on his record by any means. He is capable of recognising some forms of antisemitism - for example he knew that Ken Livingstone was offensive & wrong, and that Pete Gregson's banner outside Labour Party Conference was a disgrace - and is nothing like say David Miller or Chris Williamson whose entire world is Jew-obsessed. But there are forms of it he is and long has been blind to, and ignorance, especially in the case of someone who has attained the position of Leader of the Opposition, is not defensible. This is actually a very good summary of things. And that was the most unforgivable thing about his instant reaction to the EHRC report - it showed that blindness was still there. (it also, let's not forget, went against the agreement on this that JC and SKS had previously reached - that alone was arguably reason enough for suspending him) |
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bsjmcr
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Post by bsjmcr on Mar 29, 2023 11:18:31 GMT
If he runs as an Independent , I expect Corbyn to pick up the bulk of the Green vote plus a big chunk of the Labour vote.Not difficult to see him polling 45%. I think there’s a chance instead the Greens may end up doing better? It’s funny how many out there now think there is a risk of a Tory gain due to a split vote given they got just over 5,000 votes last time so there would need to be a lot of splitting… On paper a LD gain as a result is slightly more likely based on the last result but given the local election results the Greens could have some momentum (no pun intended) behind them? They managed to keep their deposit last time which is rare and a strong campaign on a ‘real change’ ticket and a fresh face vs ‘the old establishment’ - I.e. the other parties + clapped-out Corbyn could make significant inroads. This could even end up being more a more likely Green target than Bristol West… and especially if the chosen Labour candidate ends up being a poor fit for the area. |
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graham
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Post by graham on Mar 29, 2023 11:26:21 GMT
If he runs as an Independent , I expect Corbyn to pick up the bulk of the Green vote plus a big chunk of the Labour vote.Not difficult to see him polling 45%. I think there’s a chance instead the Greens may end up doing better? It’s funny how many out there now think there is a risk of a Tory gain due to a split vote given they got just over 5,000 votes last time so there would need to be a lot of splitting… On paper a LD gain as a result is slightly more likely based on the last result but given the local election results the Greens could have some momentum (no pun intended) behind them? They managed to keep their deposit last time which is rare and a strong campaign on a ‘real change’ ticket and a fresh face vs ‘the old establishment’ - I.e. the other parties + clapped-out Corbyn could make significant inroads. This could even end up being more a more likely Green target than Bristol West… and especially if the chosen Labour candidate ends up being a poor fit for the area. Green support at local elections very rarely translates into votes at a GE, and in the context of Corbyn running as an Independent they are likely to be squeezed into irrelevance. Perhaps they would even endorse him. |
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Post by markgoodair on Mar 29, 2023 13:00:04 GMT
Further evidence why we need electoral reform . |
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Post by johnloony on Mar 29, 2023 13:00:58 GMT
Further evidence why we need electoral reform . Non-sequitur by someone who doesn’t know what “need” means. |
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Post by markgoodair on Mar 29, 2023 13:04:07 GMT
Further evidence why we need electoral reform . Non-sequitur by someone who doesn’t know what “need” means. Conservative argues against his own party having representation on Islington Borough Council . |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 13:10:04 GMT
Non-sequitur by someone who doesn’t know what “need” means. Conservative argues against his own party having representation on Islington Borough Council . Well I can live with that, especially if it means not lumbering ourselves with the mess of PR. |
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Post by markgoodair on Mar 29, 2023 15:34:21 GMT
Conservative argues against his own party having representation on Islington Borough Council . Well I can live with that, especially if it means not lumbering ourselves with the mess of PR. So your happy to see literally thousands and thousands of Conservative votes go to waste to make some strange point that mayor English cities such as Manchester, Liverpool, Gateshead and Newcastle shouldn't have a single Conservative Councillor? Bizarre . |
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Post by greatkingrat on Mar 29, 2023 15:50:31 GMT
That is the major flaw of PR advocates, they assume their cause is so obviously right and just that they cannot comprehend that some people genuinely aren't bothered that seats aren't exactly proportional to votes.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Mar 29, 2023 15:52:32 GMT
In point of fact I've never heard an actual case being made for why seats for political parties should be proportional to the number of votes cast for them.
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Post by markgoodair on Mar 29, 2023 16:03:35 GMT
That is the major flaw of PR advocates, they assume their cause is so obviously right and just that they cannot comprehend that some people genuinely aren't bothered that seats aren't exactly proportional to votes. You mean Tories who know damn well that PR would see the end of their control of power. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 16:09:25 GMT
Let's not pretend that the LibDem support for PR is out of some altruistic belief in fairness. It stems from their desire to increase their own representation and entrench themselves as permanent parliamentary kingmakers
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 16:10:58 GMT
In point of fact I've never heard an actual case being made for why seats for political parties should be proportional to the number of votes cast for them. The fundamental problem with it is that there is no way to make parliamentary power proportionate to parliamentary representation, which renders fussing about votes being proportionate to seats totally pointless |
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andrewp
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Post by andrewp on Mar 29, 2023 16:16:10 GMT
Let's not pretend that the LibDem support for PR is out of some altruistic beliin fairness. It stems from their desire to increase their own representation and entrench themselves as permanent parliamentary kingmakers A significant reason for supporting PR, for quite a number of its supporters, is precisely to ‘lock the tories out’ |
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Post by grahammurray on Mar 29, 2023 16:16:44 GMT
In point of fact I've never heard an actual case being made for why seats for political parties should be proportional to the number of votes cast for them. You almost certainly have heard them but never listened. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 16:18:49 GMT
Let's not pretend that the LibDem support for PR is out of some altruistic beliin fairness. It stems from their desire to increase their own representation and entrench themselves as permanent parliamentary kingmakers A significant reason for supporting PR, for quite a number of its supporters, is precisely to ‘lock the tories out’ Exactly. To be honest I think any political type, if asked about any electoral question, whether it's PR, prisoners voting, representation by population vs electorate, or anything else, will answer with a view that is self serving in that it favours their party. And yes, I include myself in that and quite freely admit it |
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