Dover

[yellowperil]

Dover is a very special constituency- after all for many people is the front door of the UK, and the White Cliffs  a symbol of England. Of course there are in fact many other doors- the other ferry ports like Folkestone or Newhaven, the rail entry point which is now Ashford, and of course the way most people now enter the UK is by air through Heathrow ,Gatwick etc. Nevertheless Dover has always been a special symbol- I think back to WW2, Vera Lynn and all that. It also has a huge parliamentary history - there have been MPs for Dover since the fourteenth century.  The fortunes of the place has always been closely linked with the lands on the other side of the channel, which are clearly visible across that narrow stretch of water. I think it would be fair to say the relationship across the water could be described as a love/hate one.

Of course the constituency today is a lot more than just the town and port of Dover. It includes one other significant town in Deal-  from 1974 to 1983 the constituency was known as Dover and Deal before reverting to the shorter title. It also includes a rural hinterland, much of it high up on the North Downs, but it is not quite the usual Kent patterm with a bucolic rural hinterland safely Tory to offset any more leftish tendencies in the urban areas. This interior included the most important coalmining area in the south of England. Maybe associated with that, Dover constituency in modern times has not always been safely Conservative and has had 3 Labour MPs since the war:  John Thomas (1945-50), David Ennals (1964-70) and  Gwyn Prosser  (1997-2010). They have alternated with the Tory MPs  John Arbuthnot (1950-64), Peter Rees (1970-1987), David Shaw (1987-1997) and then Charlie Elphicke (2010-19) though Charlie has had two spells when he was perforce sitting as an Independent, and he has now beenreplaced by his wife Natalie

.tbc

[hullenedge]

If only the proposed (1946) constituency of Channel Ports (Deal, Dover, Folkestone and Hythe) had been drawn. What a seat to represent.

[finsobruce]

Apr 3, 2020 21:18:06 GMT hullenedge said:

If only the proposed (1946) constituency of Channel Ports (Deal, Dover, Folkestone and Hythe) had been drawn. What a seat to represent.

It would only ever have been Labour because of the Cinque estates.

[yellowperil]

Apr 3, 2020 19:33:54 GMT yellowperil said:

Dover is a very special constituency- after all for many people is the front door of the UK, and the White Cliffs  a symbol of England. Of course there are in fact many other doors- the other ferry ports like Folkestone or Newhaven, the rail entry point which is now Ashford, and of course the way most people now enter the UK is by air through Heathrow ,Gatwick etc. Nevertheless Dover has always been a special symbol- I think back to WW2, Vera Lynn and all that. It also has a huge parliamentary history - there have been MPs for Dover since the fourteenth century.  The fortunes of the place has always been closely linked with the lands on the other side of the channel, which are clearly visible across that narrow stretch of water. I think it would be fair to say the relationship across the water could be described as a love/hate one.

Of course the constituency today is a lot more than just the town and port of Dover. It includes one other significant town in Deal-  from 1974 to 1983 the constituency was known as Dover and Deal before reverting to the shorter title. It also includes a rural hinterland, much of it high up on the North Downs, but it is not quite the usual Kent patterm with a bucolic rural hinterland safely Tory to offset any more leftish tendencies in the urban areas. This interior included the most important coalmining area in the south of England. Maybe associated with that, Dover constituency in modern times has not always been safely Conservative and has had 3 Labour MPs since the war:  John Thomas (1945-50), David Ennals (1964-70) and  Gwyn Prosser  (1997-2010). They have alternated with the Tory MPs  John Arbuthnot (1950-64), Peter Rees (1970-1987), David Shaw (1987-1997) and then Charlie Elphicke (2010-19) though Charlie has had two spells when he was perforce sitting as an Independent, and he has now beenreplaced by his wife Natalie.

A look at the district elections will show pretty clearly how the Lab/Con split  in the constituency works out geographically. The constituency is broadly similar to the District except that the two northernmost district wards are in the South Thanet constituency - they are the ancient market town and Cinque Port of Sandwich, and the extensive rural area to the west of Sandwich, which is called Little Stour and Ashstone. This removes two of the districts strongest Conservative ward,s from the parliamentary constituency so Dover constituency is always going to be more eveny divided between red and blue than is the district as a whole. In 2015 the district divided 25 Conservative seats to 17 Labour and 3 UKIP (vote share was 40.6%, 32.2% and 18.6% respectivly, Lib Dems were on 5.5% and no seats)- so the seat share does represent the vote share pretty well. If you remove the 2 South Thanet wards, then the balance for Dover constituency alone became 19/17/3 and UKIP held the balance of power.

Updating those figures to 2019, after a re-warding exercise which  generally reduced  the 3-member wards to 2-member,the district figures are 20/12 for Conservatives over Labour, with no other parties gaining any seats,  and 16/12 after removing the South Thanet wards. Very broadly , Labour retains strength in certain Dover town wards, notably Buckland, St Radigunds and Tower Hamlets(!),with a split seat in Town&Castle; in the old mining village of Aylesham ; and if anything have strengthened their presence in Deal where they now hold Mill Hill and split seats in both  Mid Deal and North Deal. The Deal hinterland is another area with a lot of ex-miners in the population. There is still enoughTory strength in the more rural parts like Alkham, Guston & St Margarets,  in Walmer and in the more suburban Dover areas like River and Whitfield , so that together with the split wards, for there to be a reasonably comfortable Tory lead even without including Little Stour and Sandwich.It might be noted that there was some advance in those elections in certain wards by both Lib Dems and Greens, but not enough to actually gain seats, and there were a plethora of independents and others, maybe following the disintegration of UKIP,who again took quite a few votes without taking any seats.

[yellowperil]

You may note I have extended my contribution on Dover to attempt an explanation of the Con/Lab split, but have resisted the temptation to expand any further on the issues around the Elphicke family. After all, we were specifically instructed by Robert Waller not to get into personalising the MPs, and thereby minimising the risk of being sued, and nowhere is that warning  more apposite than in Dover (except maybe South Thanet and that's where  I may be going next  ). I will however add the results from the last decade in a separate post as I did for Ashford and F&H.

[froome]

I spent one night in Dover about 15 years ago, and found it one of the most depressing towns I had ever visited. If it was further north, it would be a very safe Labour town.

On the other hand, I think Deal is one of the best seaside towns in England. Some lovely old streets with the town centre right on the shore. On the town's southern edge the shingle beach has some wonderful arrays of flowers which are probably best seen in the late spring and beginning of summer.

[hullenedge]

I lived there for 17 years and loved the place. It was a surprise that the Conservatives polled as well as they did...David Shaw was certainly less popular than Peter Rees. I may be wrong but the town may have made a mistake putting all their eggs in one basket - ferries! They were 'recession-proof' until competition from the tunnel.

[The Bishop]

Apr 5, 2020 10:07:23 GMT hullenedge said:

I lived there for 17 years and loved the place. It was a surprise that the Conservatives polled as well as they did...David Shaw was certainly less popular than Peter Rees. I may be wrong but the town may have made a mistake putting all their eggs in one basket - ferries! They were 'recession-proof' until competition from the tunnel.

And deservedly so, despite him being one of the very first MPs to embrace the online world. That's all I will say for now

[yellowperil]

Apr 5, 2020 9:53:59 GMT froome said:

I spent one night in Dover about 15 years ago, and found it one of the most depressing towns I had ever visited. If it was further north, it would be a very safe Labour town.

On the other hand, I think Deal is one of the best seaside towns in England. Some lovely old streets with the town centre right on the shore. On the town's southern edge the shingle beach has some wonderful arrays of flowers which are probably best seen in the late spring and beginning of summer.

I know what you mean about Dover, there are some aspects which are pretty dire and quite a lot of that is down to lethal war damage and then almost more lethal postwar reconstruction.  But at the same time it is a town packed with interest, particularly if you get away from the town centre and up on the cliffs- the White Cliffs on a nice day are difficult to beat, except it may get too many people for its own good,and the newer attractions like the Fan Bay shelter very interesting. The castle is superb, and the Pharos one of Britain's most remarkable buildings in Britain, and I like the Western Heights as well. Even in town there are some key features of interest not least the roman Painted House- "Britain's Pompeii" was always overegging it a bit, but it is pretty fine,. A bit further out of town and I really like Samphire Hoe too, a quite unique experience.

I do agree with you about Deal though, it has always been one of my treat outings ever since I came to live in Kent 56 years ago, and you are quite right about the wild flowers.

[Robert Waller]

Apr 5, 2020 9:41:00 GMT yellowperil said:

You may note I have extended my contribution on Dover to attempt an explanation of the Con/Lab split, but have resisted the temptation to expand any further on the issues around the Elphicke family. After all, we were specifically instructed by Robert Waller not to get into personalising the MPs, and thereby minimising the risk of being sued, and nowhere is that warning  more apposite than in Dover (except maybe South Thanet and that's where  I may be going next  ). I will however add the results from the last decade in a separate post as I did for Ashford and F&H.

I don't think I am in a position (or would wish) to specifically instruct anybody!

However, my experience does suggest great care needs to be taken when discussing MPs, particularly of the living variety. After all, they may just be sitting round looking at the internet, feeling in an antsy mood, and so on.
I'm sure none of us would like to risk losing this forum!

[yellowperil]

General Election 2019

28,830   56.9%   Con  (N.Elphicke)
16,552    32.6%  Lab   (C.Cornell)
  2, 895    5.7%    LD     (S. Dodd)
   1,371     2.7%   GP     (B. Sawbridge)
     916       1.8%   Ind    (N. Sutton)
     137         0.3    WEP  (E.Morais)

General Election 2017

27,211     52.4%  Con (C.Elphicke)
20,774     40.0%   Lab (S.Blair)
   1,723       3.3% UKIP(P. Wauchope)
   1,336      2.6%  LD  (S. Dodd)
       923      1.8% GP  (B. Sawbridge)

General Election 2015

21,737   43.3%  Con (C. Elphicke)
15,433   30.7%  Lab (C.Hawkins)
10,177    20.3% UKIP (D. Little)
 1, 572      3.1% LD (S. Smith)
 1,279       2.6% GP (J. Trimingham)

General Election 2010

22,174    44.0% Con (C. Elphicke)
16,900     33.5% Lab ( G. Prosser)
   7,962     15.8% LD  (J. Brigden)
    1,747      3.5% UKIP (V. Matcham)
    1,104      2.2% BNP (D.Whiting)
        216      0.4% ED  (M. Walters)
        200       0.4% CPA (D. Clark)
          82        0.2% Ind (G.Lee-Delisle)

[carlton43]

Apr 5, 2020 9:53:59 GMT froome said:

I spent one night in Dover about 15 years ago, and found it one of the most depressing towns I had ever visited. If it was further north, it would be a very safe Labour town.

On the other hand, I think Deal is one of the best seaside towns in England. Some lovely old streets with the town centre right on the shore. On the town's southern edge the shingle beach has some wonderful arrays of flowers which are probably best seen in the late spring and beginning of summer.

I know Dover well and worked there for a while, and probably have a more balanced view than a single visit?   It is not at all like some sink town in the north, but it has been affected by being a front line defence point and a port of entry and departure.  It is dominated by road and rail in a very tight geographical window, exacerbated by steep cliffs and rolling dowland behind.  So it gets the distress of heavy throughput and has seen a lot of military there and passing through as well.

Those effects dominate the docks, the frontage on the sea and the immediate streets to the rear.  They service hurried short term need and one-night stop-overs before and after travel.  There are many cheap and cheerful cafes and support shops.  Heavy use makes many look 'used' and tawdry.  And the advent of the Chunnel tore a bit of the essence out of boat trains and glamour.  But many (like me) preferred the boat trip to the moribund experience of a Tunnel, and continued to use the town.

But Dover is much more than that port facility with interesting buildings, much history and many areas of nice housing that you would have had no occasion to seek out.  It is no run down slum area without a future and without attractions.  It is interesting and in parts and surrounding environment very pleasant.

[yellowperil]

Apr 5, 2020 12:57:27 GMT carlton43 said:

Apr 5, 2020 9:53:59 GMT froome said:

I spent one night in Dover about 15 years ago, and found it one of the most depressing towns I had ever visited. If it was further north, it would be a very safe Labour town.

On the other hand, I think Deal is one of the best seaside towns in England. Some lovely old streets with the town centre right on the shore. On the town's southern edge the shingle beach has some wonderful arrays of flowers which are probably best seen in the late spring and beginning of summer.

I know Dover well and worked there for a while, and probably have a more balanced view than a single visit?   It is not at all like some sink town in the north, but it has been affected by being a front line defence point and a port of entry and departure.  It is dominated by road and rail in a very tight geographical window, exacerbated by steep cliffs and rolling dowland behind.  So it gets the distress of heavy throughput and has seen a lot of military there and passing through as well.

Those effects dominate the docks, the frontage on the sea and the immediate streets to the rear.  They service hurried short term need and one-night stop-overs before and after travel.  There are many cheap and cheerful cafes and support shops.  Heavy use makes many look 'used' and tawdry.  And the advent of the Chunnel tore a bit of the essence out of boat trains and glamour.  But many (like me) preferred the boat trip to the moribund experience of a Tunnel, and continued to use the town.

But Dover is much more than that port facility with interesting buildings, much history and many areas of nice housing that you would have had no occasion to seek out.  It is no run down slum area without a future and without attractions.  It is interesting and in parts and surrounding environment very pleasant.

Agree with much of that, and I might add I also worked in the town for a while, taking some classes in the Dover branch of my college. On the point of the the boat train experience and the glamour of that, I have to say I always thought Folkestone had the edge in that respect- a lot more pleasant.  I also remember the relatively brief excitement of the hovercraft era! There is a bit of disconnect now if you arrive in Dover now to Priory station and are left a mile or so from the port.  Dover is no longer geared up to an easy train-boat connection, its all about cars, and above all, lorries. I've never been all that keen on Le Shuttle, by the way, preferring Eurostar as the best way of using the Tunnel, and of course that is another way of  bypassing  Dover altogether!
 

[froome]

Thanks carlton43 and yellowperil. You obviously know the town far better than I do, and I must try to get another opportunity to explore it further. I only saw the town centre area, which as has been said, is just geared up to moving cars through as quickly as possible, and as a pedestrian there, it left me feeling intimidated, with the coast cut off by a large road. I had intended to walk to the castle and explore it, but the town centre put me off exploring.

[carlton43]

Apr 5, 2020 14:23:51 GMT froome said:

Thanks carlton43 and yellowperil . You obviously know the town far better than I do, and I must try to get another opportunity to explore it further. I only saw the town centre area, which as has been said, is just geared up to moving cars through as quickly as possible, and as a pedestrian there, it left me feeling intimidated, with the coast cut off by a large road. I had intended to walk to the castle and explore it, but the town centre put me off exploring.

The point being, why on earth do you post on areas where you obviously know so little?  What is the point when others who do know quite a bit are also posting?

Your assertion that Dover would be a Labour town if in the north, was made on the basis of being a pedestrian on the dock front for 'part of one day'!  Bit silly wasn't it?

[yellowperil]

Apr 5, 2020 18:38:50 GMT @barnabymarder said:

Unusually, although I would have been less brusque, I tend to agree with Carlton a bit. It is best that we write profiles, at least at this stage, about the constituencies we know the best. Then perhaps see what is left and then the people who know them at least a bit, where possible, should write the profiles. I could write a bunch more but there will be others here who know many seats better than I do. I could do the Ealing ones though, unless Pete is particularly keen, I know them well.

There is surely a big difference between somebody writing a draft profile, which I agree needs if at all possible to be somebody who has substantial first hand knowledge of the constituency in question, and somebody posting the odd thought, impression, question, based on a more rudimentary knowledge of the constituency or simply reacting to what the OP says. I will confine my profile writing for the moment to the 5 East Kent constituencies, which I know from living , working and being politically active in the area for 56 years! I am reading the other profiles with interest and may be occasionally tempted to add a comment or question and I see nothing wrong with that. In this case froome has made a comment about his impression of Dover based on what he says was a fleeting visit, and carlton43 and I have  attempted to tell him his fleeting impression was at least in part wrong.  I would say that's a useful educational process all round.

[jamie]

Probably worth mentioning the coal mining history of parts of the constituency. Western Deal housed many coal miners and the Aylesham/Eythorne area is rather unusual being a rather rural area in the south that was heavily dependent on coal mining.

[heslingtonian]

Apr 5, 2020 10:25:49 GMT The Bishop said:

Apr 5, 2020 10:07:23 GMT hullenedge said:

I lived there for 17 years and loved the place. It was a surprise that the Conservatives polled as well as they did...David Shaw was certainly less popular than Peter Rees. I may be wrong but the town may have made a mistake putting all their eggs in one basket - ferries! They were 'recession-proof' until competition from the tunnel.

And deservedly so, despite him being one of the very first MPs to embrace the online world. That's all I will say for now

To be fair, David Shaw in Dover was a lot more electorally successful than David Shaw in Kingston.

[yellowperil]

Apr 6, 2020 17:44:51 GMT jamie said:

Probably worth mentioning the coal mining history of parts of the constituency. Western Deal housed many coal miners and the Aylesham/Eythorne area is rather unusual being a rather rural area in the south that was heavily dependent on coal mining.

Absolutely. I have already referred to both to Aylesham as being a mining centre and to there being a lot of ex-miners in western Deal- it was already there in the text, which for the moment I haven't changed. If you think that needs beefing up futher maybe we could find a way of doing so- it certainly has a lot to do with why Dover constituency still has a substantial Labour vote

[bjornhattan]

Apr 6, 2020 17:44:51 GMT jamie said:

Probably worth mentioning the coal mining history of parts of the constituency. Western Deal housed many coal miners and the Aylesham/Eythorne area is rather unusual being a rather rural area in the south that was heavily dependent on coal mining.

The old Aylesham ward routinely gave Labour 70% of the vote at a local level, while Eythorne and Sheperdswell tended to be a fairly close marginal (looking at demographics the former will have been Labour but less so than Aylesham, the latter would have been very Conservative).

In 2019 the two wards merged, and the only result there so far was astonishingly close, and rather complicated. There were seven candidates for three seats. Three were incumbents: a Labour councillor for Aylesham, a Conservative councillor for Eythorne, and an Independent councillor for Eythorne (elected as Labour but suspended). Labour also put up their losing 2015 candidate from Eythorne, and their losing 2015 candidate from Town and Pier. The last two candidates were a new Conservative and a Liberal Democrat (only two Conservatives).

In the end the incumbent Labour candidate from Aylesham won handily with 997 votes. However there was a virtual tie for second - the former losing candidate for Eythorne got in this time with 915 votes, the Independent managed 914, and the Conservative incumbent 908. The other candidates were further back - Labour's candidate from Town and Pier got 872, the other Conservative got 786, and the Lib Dem managed a very respectable 450.

No doubt that was a nerve wracking count!