No need for taxation.

[boogieeck]

I am bored with Covid19 talk.

On twatter, one of my libertarian chums' os bemoaning the freeze in alcohol duty. He thinks it should be abolished along with all other taxes. I was going to point out to him that even the minarchist state requires some form of minimum armed forces, judiciary and police force presumably prison service so, therefore, taxation of some sort, then engage in a futile discussion of just how minimal the Police and judges salaries could be. But really Twitter is not the place for detailed meaningless discussions. Its here.

So I have two questions. How minimal a state could you accept? Could it be cut by 25%? Or can it only grow? If we could cut it by an agreed amount, whatever that amount is, where would you wish to focus tax cuts and why?

When you get bored with this question, probably later today, I have another.

[Deleted]

I'm up for a stateless, classless society

[myth11]

Single income/profit tax rate of 37%ish and get rid of all other taxes.

[edgbaston]

Mar 12, 2020 17:15:52 GMT myth11 said:

Single income/profit tax rate of 37%ish and get rid of all other taxes.

Well done. Hundreds of thousands of UK citizens are now bankrupt, homeless, or going hungry.

[J.G.Harston]

Mar 12, 2020 17:19:49 GMT edgbaston said:

Mar 12, 2020 17:15:52 GMT myth11 said:

Single income/profit tax rate of 37%ish and get rid of all other taxes.

Well done. Hundreds of thousands of UK citizens are now bankrupt, homeless, or going hungry.

Current income + NI + property + duty + sales + other taxes ends up around the 35%-40% mark, so who are these hundreds of thousands being forced into destitution?

[alien8ted]

The reality is taxes could be a lot lot lower but with consequences, people taking advantage so we'd have more crime probably and more homeless and more disease and death, as taking it to an extreme would mean no nhs, no benefits etc.

However a true freehousing  market wouldn't be any worse than our current benefits supported housing market.

What is the right level depends on what you are prepared to accept as consequences.

👽

[myth11]

Mar 12, 2020 17:32:04 GMT J.G.Harston said:

Mar 12, 2020 17:19:49 GMT edgbaston said:

Well done. Hundreds of thousands of UK citizens are now bankrupt, homeless, or going hungry.

Current income + NI + property + duty + sales + other taxes ends up around the 35%-40% mark, so who are these hundreds of thousands being forced into destitution?

I will admit it will likely get rid of some tax collectors/accountants and people working in Benefit offices for example no council tax equals no council tax benefit plus less work for the courts.

[greenchristian]

Mar 12, 2020 17:32:04 GMT J.G.Harston said:

Mar 12, 2020 17:19:49 GMT edgbaston said:

Well done. Hundreds of thousands of UK citizens are now bankrupt, homeless, or going hungry.

Current income + NI + property + duty + sales + other taxes ends up around the 35%-40% mark, so who are these hundreds of thousands being forced into destitution?

Presumably people who are currently earning below the income tax threshold.

[Deleted]

A single income tax would hugely benefit anyone earning more than 40k a year and disadvantage anyone earning less. For example I work 30 hours a week on minimum wage and pay very little in incone tax if at all, if I had to pay 37% I would pay short of 5k a year.

Yes I do pay other taxes; VAT, council tax, NI, etc. But I would say at most I pay 1k in other taxes a year

[myth11]

Mar 12, 2020 19:45:08 GMT @priceofdawn said:

A single income tax would hugely benefit anyone earning more than 40k a year and disadvantage anyone earning less. For example I work 30 hours a week on minimum wage and pay very little in incone tax if at all, if I had to pay 37% I would pay short of 5k a year.

Yes I do pay other taxes; VAT, council tax, NI, etc. But I would say at most I pay 1k in other taxes a year

Of course i do not your spending habits but you be shocked at the amount of tax which is hidden for example electricity has 5% vat plus 20% in green tax and then there are the indirect tax cost such as most food  is "tax free" but the lorry that delivered  it is not so adds to the cost of the food.
I am guessing you do not drink/drive/smoke which is a good way of lowering your tax bill.

[myth11]

Mar 12, 2020 17:19:49 GMT edgbaston said:

Mar 12, 2020 17:15:52 GMT myth11 said:

Single income/profit tax rate of 37%ish and get rid of all other taxes.

Well done. Hundreds of thousands of UK citizens are now bankrupt, homeless, or going hungry.

I would replace NI/income allowance and a lot of benefits/tax credits with a form of basic income to prevent that.

[Deleted]

Mar 12, 2020 20:24:53 GMT myth11 said:

Mar 12, 2020 19:45:08 GMT @priceofdawn said:

A single income tax would hugely benefit anyone earning more than 40k a year and disadvantage anyone earning less. For example I work 30 hours a week on minimum wage and pay very little in incone tax if at all, if I had to pay 37% I would pay short of 5k a year.

Yes I do pay other taxes; VAT, council tax, NI, etc. But I would say at most I pay 1k in other taxes a year

Of course i do not your spending habits but you be shocked at the amount of tax which is hidden for example electricity has 5% vat plus 20% in green tax and then there are the indirect tax cost such as most food  is "tax free" but the lorry that delivered  it is not so adds to the cost of the food.
I am guessing you do not drink/drive/smoke which is a good way of lowering your tax bill.

i do not drink or smoke but I've just bought my first car

[myth11]

Mar 12, 2020 21:13:41 GMT @priceofdawn said:

Mar 12, 2020 20:24:53 GMT myth11 said:

Of course i do not your spending habits but you be shocked at the amount of tax which is hidden for example electricity has 5% vat plus 20% in green tax and then there are the indirect tax cost such as most food  is "tax free" but the lorry that delivered  it is not so adds to the cost of the food.
I am guessing you do not drink/drive/smoke which is a good way of lowering your tax bill.

i do not drink or smoke but I've just bought my first car

Assuming its not electric every litre is 57.95p in duty plus 20% vat on the total fuel price and not forgetting car tax. As a courier fuel is my main tax source at a rate of around 65%ish per litre.

[Deleted]

Mar 12, 2020 21:35:15 GMT myth11 said:

Mar 12, 2020 21:13:41 GMT @priceofdawn said:

i do not drink or smoke but I've just bought my first car

Assuming its not electric every litre is 57.95p in duty plus 20% vat on the total fuel price and not forgetting car tax. As a courier fuel is my main tax source at a rate of around 65%ish per litre.

it is not electric. Though I do get 40p per mile for work which i got when i cycled as well

[myth11]

Mar 12, 2020 21:40:50 GMT @priceofdawn said:

Mar 12, 2020 21:35:15 GMT myth11 said:

Assuming its not electric every litre is 57.95p in duty plus 20% vat on the total fuel price and not forgetting car tax. As a courier fuel is my main tax source at a rate of around 65%ish per litre.

it is not electric. Though I do get 40p per mile for work which i got when i cycled as well

I keep looking for a 2nd hand electric car but the cheap ones tend lack range/space so i might have to wait a few years before buying one. 

[carlton43]

Mar 12, 2020 21:13:41 GMT @priceofdawn said:

Mar 12, 2020 20:24:53 GMT myth11 said:

Of course i do not your spending habits but you be shocked at the amount of tax which is hidden for example electricity has 5% vat plus 20% in green tax and then there are the indirect tax cost such as most food  is "tax free" but the lorry that delivered  it is not so adds to the cost of the food.
I am guessing you do not drink/drive/smoke which is a good way of lowering your tax bill.

i do not drink or smoke but I've just bought my first car

You should have started with the purchase of your second car and thus avoided all the expense of the first one.

[boogieeck]

Alone it seems I do not share the enthusiasm for the removal of tax on tampax and e-books. I would have no exceptions, not on food or children's clothes. I would instead seek to cut or abolish those taxes which are most easily avoided such as Corp tax.

I would like to cut fuel duty, especially on diesel, or permit haulage to use Red Diesel or introduce Blue Diesel at a lower tax tate

I would give local authorities the power to adopt policies that create zones where business rates were not applied, to permit high streets to spread the pain of obsolescence over a longer period and permit housing to migrate back to the high streets.

I would like to cut the block grants to local authorities and give them powers to raise taxes instead. But not income tax or VAT/purchase tax.

I would abolish inheritance tax, which is avoided by the truly rich, and introduce wealth tax on wealth over say £25m, payable on asset value annually at a rate of about 1%.

[J.G.Harston]

Initial thoughts:

I'd phase in merging Income Tax and National Insurance - which is just another income tax. To placate the screams of "taxing pensioners!!!!" I'd consider introducing a Retired Person's Additional Allowance (to screams of "generation gap inequality!!!" from youngsters).

I'd abolish VAT.

[boogieeck]

I would resist abolishing taxes without introducing others. Screams of pain from Pete Whitehead

What I mean is that I think it is unwise to tax any activity at a high rate, it discourages activity and encourages evasion. Nothing should ever be taxed above 50% in my view. Ideally far lower. But taxing anything at a very low rate is often not worth the bother in terms of tax take. So there is a goldilocks area.

The thing to remember is that the object of taxation should be to raise money to do good works. It should never be to discourage sinful activity

[myth11]

Mar 13, 2020 20:26:31 GMT J.G.Harston said:

Initial thoughts:

I'd phase in merging Income Tax and National Insurance - which is just another income tax. To placate the screams of "taxing pensioners!!!!" I'd consider introducing a Retired Person's Additional Allowance (to screams of "generation gap inequality!!!" from youngsters).

I'd abolish VAT.

Another upside of getting rid of VAT is that we can not rejoin the EU without it.