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Post by AdminSTB on Apr 27, 2019 23:41:05 GMT
Supposing Michael Foot had managed to become Prime Minister sometime between 1976 and 1984, with a commitment to withdraw the UK from the EEC.
Could he have managed it? Would he have faced the same obstacles as today's government have faced, such as calls to decide the issue in a second referendum (the first having been held in 1975, of course) and hostile MPs from his own side continually voting down his withdrawal agreement? The 1983 manifesto suggested no referendum would have been held; the plan was simply to legislate for it.
Then of course there is the aftermath. Once we had left the EEC, imagine the implications it would have had on the political scene to this day.
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Apr 28, 2019 0:19:43 GMT
This was pre-article 50 days, and European integration was not so deeply entrenched into all aspects of UK government, so it would have been a lot easier.
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Apr 28, 2019 0:24:09 GMT
Article 50 and its associated processes first came into effect in 2009.
Whilst withdrawing from the EEC would've been far from simple, it would not have been as difficult as it is post-Maastricht (with how intertwined things have become since then) and certainly post-Lisbon (which established a formal process for leaving that is seen to favour the interests of the continuing EU over the state that is trying to exit). The only precedent of sorts that emerged from the time period we are considering involved Greenland, which is not a sovereign state, has a much smaller population and is far more peripheral to Europe in geographical terms.
The Supreme Court was also not a thing at the time, and Gina Miller was a schoolgirl who'd only recently arrived on these shores from Guyana. Perhaps Mr Foot would not have had to go through Parliament at all...
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Post by AdminSTB on Apr 28, 2019 8:32:03 GMT
I think the replies so far sum up why the desire to Leave has strengthened so greatly since 1975, especially on the Right of the political spectrum. The more the EEC/EU has tightened its grip, the more public support has slipped through its fingers.
The idea of Michael Foot being Prime Minister appals me (though on a personal level he was a decent man) but had he withdrawn the UK from the EEC, any case to rejoin would have been increasingly difficult to make over the years. Likewise the case to rejoin in 10 years' time will be more difficult to make (assuming it actually ever happens), especially if for instance joining the Euro is a condition for new member states.
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Foggy
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Post by Foggy on Apr 29, 2019 0:03:27 GMT
My very last point, about the setting up of the Supreme Court, is not something I believe the EU forced us to do. The rest of what I wrote I suppose does support your argument (and yes, Foot certainly was a decent man).
As far as I'm aware, an undertaking to join the single currency is a condition for new member states. No ifs, no buts, even for a returning country.
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 29, 2019 7:22:51 GMT
As far as I'm aware, an undertaking to join the single currency is a condition for new member states. No ifs, no buts, even for a returning country. That means rejoining is out of the question, then. I'm not sure if that is the case - I suppose as there is no precedent it's hard to tell |
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Post by torremark on Apr 29, 2019 7:51:26 GMT
As far as I'm aware, an undertaking to join the single currency is a condition for new member states. No ifs, no buts, even for a returning country. That means rejoining is out of the question, then. I'm not sure if that is the case - I suppose as there is no precedent it's hard to tell Have always believed that if rejoining we would lose our Germany ++ current deal which includes no euro joining Schengen and paying the full whack contribution plus other things. This is one of the reasons “trying it on our own” is such a bad idea. |
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slon
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Post by slon on Apr 30, 2019 13:10:00 GMT
Supposing Michael Foot had managed to become Prime Minister sometime between 1976 and 1984, with a commitment to withdraw the UK from the EEC. Could he have managed it? Would he have faced the same obstacles as today's government have faced, such as calls to decide the issue in a second referendum (the first having been held in 1975, of course) and hostile MPs from his own side continually voting down his withdrawal agreement? The 1983 manifesto suggested no referendum would have been held; the plan was simply to legislate for it. Then of course there is the aftermath. Once we had left the EEC, imagine the implications it would have had on the political scene to this day. How about the rest of the 39 page suicide note? "New Hope for Britain" Or do we consider that Michael was joking about the other stuff
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Post by AdminSTB on Apr 30, 2019 16:32:56 GMT
Supposing Michael Foot had managed to become Prime Minister sometime between 1976 and 1984, with a commitment to withdraw the UK from the EEC. Could he have managed it? Would he have faced the same obstacles as today's government have faced, such as calls to decide the issue in a second referendum (the first having been held in 1975, of course) and hostile MPs from his own side continually voting down his withdrawal agreement? The 1983 manifesto suggested no referendum would have been held; the plan was simply to legislate for it. Then of course there is the aftermath. Once we had left the EEC, imagine the implications it would have had on the political scene to this day. How about the rest of the 39 page suicide note? "New Hope for Britain" Or do we consider that Michael was joking about the other stuff
I am in no way endorsing him. I am speculating what might have become of our EEC/EU membership status had be been Prime Minister. |
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slon
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Post by slon on May 1, 2019 7:48:32 GMT
How about the rest of the 39 page suicide note? "New Hope for Britain" Or do we consider that Michael was joking about the other stuff
I am in no way endorsing him. I am speculating what might have become of our EEC/EU membership status had be been Prime Minister. In my opinion nothing would have changed. The suicide note was just a random bundle of ideas with the forlorn hope that enough random people would latch on to one or other idea and actually cast a vote in that direction. If he had by any chance been elected the whole lot would have gone in the bin and the normal program of events would have resumed. (remember this was the guy who would speak at CND rallies on Sundays and sign nuclear weapon contracts on Mondays).
Thinking for a moment of the unelectable Tories the useless liberals, and the apparent madness of Corbyn ... perhaps Jeremy could be considered the same as Foot, if by any chance he does get elected things will not be as bad as we might fear.
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Post by carlton43 on May 1, 2019 8:00:22 GMT
I am in no way endorsing him. I am speculating what might have become of our EEC/EU membership status had be been Prime Minister. In my opinion nothing would have changed. The suicide note was just a random bundle of ideas with the forlorn hope that enough random people would latch on to one or other idea and actually cast a vote in that direction. If he had by any chance been elected the whole lot would have gone in the bin and the normal program of events would have resumed. (remember this was the guy who would speak at CND rallies on Sundays and sign nuclear weapon contracts on Mondays).
Thinking for a moment of the unelectable Tories the useless liberals, and the apparent madness of Corbyn ... perhaps Jeremy could be considered the same as Foot, if by any chance he does get elected things will not be as bad as we might fear.
"...and sign nuclear weapon contracts on Mondays..." Cite some examples of this absurdist contention. Signed on behalf of what authority and with what other authority? What indeed do you mean by this? |
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slon
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Post by slon on May 1, 2019 8:34:42 GMT
In my opinion nothing would have changed. The suicide note was just a random bundle of ideas with the forlorn hope that enough random people would latch on to one or other idea and actually cast a vote in that direction. If he had by any chance been elected the whole lot would have gone in the bin and the normal program of events would have resumed. (remember this was the guy who would speak at CND rallies on Sundays and sign nuclear weapon contracts on Mondays).
Thinking for a moment of the unelectable Tories the useless liberals, and the apparent madness of Corbyn ... perhaps Jeremy could be considered the same as Foot, if by any chance he does get elected things will not be as bad as we might fear.
"...and sign nuclear weapon contracts on Mondays..." Cite some examples of this absurdist contention. Signed on behalf of what authority and with what other authority? What indeed do you mean by this? bit of poetic licence
He cannot however have been unaware of the UK nuclear weapon program while being a senior member of the Wilson/Callaghan governments
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Post by pepperminttea on May 17, 2019 15:36:19 GMT
That means rejoining is out of the question, then. I'm not sure if that is the case - I suppose as there is no precedent it's hard to tell Have always believed that if rejoining we would lose our Germany ++ current deal which includes no euro joining Schengen and paying the full whack contribution plus other things. This is one of the reasons “trying it on our own” is such a bad idea. I reckon we could rejoin and be out of Schengen for the simple reason that Ireland isn't in Schengen so us not being either makes the border problem much simpler. We would indeed have no rebate, be forced to sign up to the fast track of 'ever closer union' and have to join the Euro, none of which is remotely popular. |
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