General councillors and other notable defections

[Deleted]

Jul 10, 2014 12:25:41 GMT @boogieeck said:

While it was politically a stupid tweet to make, I do not think it was necessarily motivated by attention seeking but perhaps by frustration at having bitten his tongue for too long as the military were lauded. It may well be that his youthful experience of the sort of person who goes on to join the army had left him in no doubts that the army was full people whose values he despised. I have to admit, the people I knew who chose the army as a career were not the sort of folk I wished to spend time with, enlisted or commissioned. Don't read to much into that, I didn't like the future bankers, doctors, lawyers or accountants either. I liked the future self employed, retailers, police and engineers. The future air force and navy were not in my experience military, but people who wished to paly with planes or boats.

Accountants are just people who are too lazy to actually pick a job and so pick one that requires the least interesting personality.

[Davıd Boothroyd]

Reported that Barry Dodson, councillor for Rotherham East ward, has resigned from the Labour Party. He was elected Mayor of Rotherham at the annual meeting last month but resigned on 27 June, less than three weeks into the role.

[J.G.Harston]

Jul 10, 2014 21:35:48 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

Reported that Barry Dodson, councillor for Rotherham East ward, has resigned from the Labour Party. He was elected Mayor of Rotherham at the annual meeting last month but resigned on 27 June, less than three weeks into the role.

Well, as normally the Mayor doesn't sit on any committees, and only ever casts a vote at Full Council in the event of a tie, it's essentially irrelevant whether the Mayor is a member of a party, especially in Rotherham with a 70%+ Labour council.

[neilm]

Quasi ethnocentric??

Come the revolution, come the revolution...

[Devil Wincarnate]

Jul 11, 2014 14:57:17 GMT neilm said:

Quasi ethnocentric??

Come the revolution, come the revolution...

Quasi Ethnocentric are playing Warrington Parr Hall on Saturday, followed by dates in Basingstoke, Runcorn and Kettering.

[Merseymike]

Jul 10, 2014 14:17:37 GMT carlton43 said:

Jul 10, 2014 10:21:12 GMT Merseymike said:

I tend to think of the lower ranks of the military as providing a useful service in keeping psychotic individuals off the streets.

I am just surprised that the Greens have becone so soggy that they actually expel someobe for saying sonething which would have been unremarkable as an opinion a few years ago.

End of the 'Love-In' Mersey. I think that was a bit tasteless on both counts. I feel far more robust in the defence of the military than I do of the police. But both have a job that can be rough and unpleasant. Both deserve a bit of support from the society they go out of their way to protect. It is we who put them out to chase up those on sink estates who won't pay fines or council tax, or to Iraq, Afghanistan and the Balkans, to police riots against armed people or angry crowds during major strikes..............and then airily complain that they used 'undue force', 'thumped a striker' or shot 'innocent' people abroad. Just try being at the action end of one of these little tasks we give them. To dismiss this in the phrases 'keep the psychotic individuals off the streets' and 'for saying something which would have been unremarkable...'. The former is rude, trite and untrue and the latter is a disgraceful inference that supporting that sort of public statement is good and it is soggy not to do so. I am disappointed in the whole of that attitude. 

Well, sorry, but I am not withdrawing either.

Its a fact that many young men are attracted to the life the army has to offer, and that if they hadn't taken that route where their urges are steered towards something constructive and legal, I think many would have ended up in prison. Sad to say it - but the evidence is there, because so many can't cope with civvy street and end up either in prison, homeless with mental health problems, or both. I don't say that with any pleasure - it may have read as a flippant comment, as it was, but I don't think that you can deny that the army is actually quite good at re-focusing aggression.

On the second point - I am simply pointing out that a few years back this would have been quite acceptable for a Green party member to say. I do regret that it isn't. Generally I think there is already too much convergence between the parties and anyone who says anything mildly out of step seems to be dropped.

[Deleted]

Jul 11, 2014 15:27:58 GMT Merseymike said:

On the second point - I am simply pointing out that a few years back this would have been quite acceptable for a Green party member to say. I do regret that it isn't. Generally I think there is already too much convergence between the parties and anyone who says anything mildly out of step seems to be dropped.

I largely agree. And to be honest, such views can still be heard amongst Greens after the fifth round in the pub, though the kind of self-critical class analysis that I outlined on the previous page (and which I think Carlton largely misunderstood -- perhaps my fault really) has gained considerable traction -- probably because the party has become self-conscious about its middle-class aesthetic in a way that it hasn't always been.

I'm certainly surprised that this has resulted in his expulsion from the party, and I have to wonder whether the Brighton & Hove Greens are simply trying to avoid gaining any further reasons for criticism. His tweet certainly pales in comparison to the nonsense that a certain Labour councillor in Renfrewshire writes on his blog on an almost daily basis, for instance.

[froome]

Has he been expelled, or has he just been told that he cannot stay as a councillor representing the party? Expulsion would need action by the national party and he would have the right to appeal, and I'm not aware that any of that has happened.

I have no local knowledge of this but I think it is more to do with a series of comments he has made on the social media over quite a long time, with this being the 'final straw' for some in his local party, who as Benjamin notes are probably fairly twitchy about potential embarrassment caused by some of his public comments. If so, I assume he would remain a party member and presumably could, after a period of time, put himself forward again as a potential candidate, though would then need to win support from his local party.

[Devil Wincarnate]

Tasteless but can't resist- Gert Bastian probably did for Green relations with the military.

[mrhell]

Jul 10, 2014 21:40:57 GMT J.G.Harston said:

Jul 10, 2014 21:35:48 GMT Davıd Boothroyd said:

Reported that Barry Dodson, councillor for Rotherham East ward, has resigned from the Labour Party. He was elected Mayor of Rotherham at the annual meeting last month but resigned on 27 June, less than three weeks into the role.

Well, as normally the Mayor doesn't sit on any committees, and only ever casts a vote at Full Council in the event of a tie, it's essentially irrelevant whether the Mayor is a member of a party, especially in Rotherham with a 70%+ Labour council.

It looks as if he'd already resigned as Mayor a few days beforehand.

[vertex]

Jul 11, 2014 17:32:30 GMT @benjamin said:

Jul 11, 2014 15:27:58 GMT Merseymike said:

I'm certainly surprised that this has resulted in his expulsion from the party, and I have to wonder whether the Brighton & Hove Greens are simply trying to avoid gaining any further reasons for criticism. His tweet certainly pales in comparison to the nonsense that a certain Labour councillor in Renfrewshire writes on his blog on an almost daily basis, for instance.

Who is the Labour councillor in Renfrewshire?

I find it odd that devolution to local government is the in thing when the calibre of elected representatives in local government can be, how to say it politely, patchy and generally less than that at Westminster.

[The Bishop]

I suppose the argument is that giving local government more power might make people of ability more interested in putting themselves forward?

Classic chicken and egg situation, I suppose......

[Deleted]

Has Devil Wincarnate left the Conservatives?

[neilm]

Jul 11, 2014 15:08:54 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

Jul 11, 2014 14:57:17 GMT neilm said:

Quasi ethnocentric??

Come the revolution, come the revolution...

Quasi Ethnocentric are playing Warrington Parr Hall on Saturday, followed by dates in Basingstoke, Runcorn and Kettering.

I'm trying to find an environment I can say 'quasi ethnocentric' in without being mocked. Perhaps in a Guardian editorial meeting or a university sociology department common room.

[neilm]

Jul 14, 2014 10:24:49 GMT @benjamin said:

Has Devil Wincarnate left the Conservatives?

I'm wondering the same.

[Deleted]

Kwasi Ethno-Centrique was great in that Channel 4 drama.

[carlton43]

Jul 11, 2014 15:27:58 GMT Merseymike said:

Jul 10, 2014 14:17:37 GMT carlton43 said:

End of the 'Love-In' Mersey. I think that was a bit tasteless on both counts. I feel far more robust in the defence of the military than I do of the police. But both have a job that can be rough and unpleasant. Both deserve a bit of support from the society they go out of their way to protect. It is we who put them out to chase up those on sink estates who won't pay fines or council tax, or to Iraq, Afghanistan and the Balkans, to police riots against armed people or angry crowds during major strikes..............and then airily complain that they used 'undue force', 'thumped a striker' or shot 'innocent' people abroad. Just try being at the action end of one of these little tasks we give them. To dismiss this in the phrases 'keep the psychotic individuals off the streets' and 'for saying something which would have been unremarkable...'. The former is rude, trite and untrue and the latter is a disgraceful inference that supporting that sort of public statement is good and it is soggy not to do so. I am disappointed in the whole of that attitude. 

Well, sorry, but I am not withdrawing either.

Its a fact that many young men are attracted to the life the army has to offer, and that if they hadn't taken that route where their urges are steered towards something constructive and legal, I think many would have ended up in prison. Sad to say it - but the evidence is there, because so many can't cope with civvy street and end up either in prison, homeless with mental health problems, or both. I don't say that with any pleasure - it may have read as a flippant comment, as it was, but I don't think that you can deny that the army is actually quite good at re-focusing aggression.

On the second point - I am simply pointing out that a few years back this would have been quite acceptable for a Green party member to say. I do regret that it isn't. Generally I think there is already too much convergence between the parties and anyone who says anything mildly out of step seems to be dropped.

Been away. Catching up.
Well explained. Don't fully agree but valid points.

[Devil Wincarnate]

Jul 14, 2014 10:24:49 GMT @benjamin said:

Has Devil Wincarnate left the Conservatives?

I have indeed.  It's been brewing for a while.

I've been a member of the Conservatives since I was 18, with a year where I did let it lapse and was too busy to be involved at all, and was rather disillusioned.  In that time, my politics have moved steadily leftwards, towards the Wettest of Wet.  I'm probably more accurately a Christian Democrat or a Rhine Capitalist these days: I have lost my opposition to State-run utilities for example (that doesn't mean I think they're the definite answer!) and favour all sorts of Sozialmarkt-type things like works councils for firms of particular sizes.

Unfortunately for me, those politics are not really in vogue, especially not in the modern Conservative Party.  I don't really have an outlet that reflects my politics these days, and it's been harder over the last few years to be active, knowing that I'm not working for the realisation of the kind of society I would like to see.  That is most certainly not a problem with the Conservatives, otherwise I would not have given so much of my time to them for over a decade- but what I want is the chance to stand back, re-evaluate, and have the freedom to help out those candidates who do share views closer to my own (and that includes some Labour types and some Liberals), and withhold my support from those whom I disagree with, with a sense of honesty in both cases.

I am not, and never will be, one of those types who moans that there isn't a party that exactly matches my views.  As it stands, the Conservatives remain just about the closest- I'm sat on the infamous fag-paper between the two major parties, to use the old cliche.  Rather than moan that nobody represents my views, nor moan about the direction of the Party, I would rather have that freedom to constructively lend my support to individuals on my wavelength, or to help out on particular issues.  The direction of the Conservatives is not the issue: the issue is my own political outlook and how that corresponds to what they offer.  It is still the party I joined, but I'm not the person who joined the party.

I remain entirely positive towards the Conservatives.  Despite some lazy stereotyping by some people in this world, they remain full of decent people who want to improve this country, and full of people I would, have and will vote for.

[mrhell]

Makes a change from "the party has left me".

[thirdchill]

Jul 14, 2014 19:56:49 GMT Devil Wincarnate said:

Jul 14, 2014 10:24:49 GMT @benjamin said:

Has Devil Wincarnate left the Conservatives?

I have indeed.  It's been brewing for a while.

I've been a member of the Conservatives since I was 18, with a year where I did let it lapse and was too busy to be involved at all, and was rather disillusioned.  In that time, my politics have moved steadily leftwards, towards the Wettest of Wet.  I'm probably more accurately a Christian Democrat or a Rhine Capitalist these days: I have lost my opposition to State-run utilities for example (that doesn't mean I think they're the definite answer!) and favour all sorts of Sozialmarkt-type things like works councils for firms of particular sizes.

Unfortunately for me, those politics are not really in vogue, especially not in the modern Conservative Party.  I don't really have an outlet that reflects my politics these days, and it's been harder over the last few years to be active, knowing that I'm not working for the realisation of the kind of society I would like to see.  That is most certainly not a problem with the Conservatives, otherwise I would not have given so much of my time to them for over a decade- but what I want is the chance to stand back, re-evaluate, and have the freedom to help out those candidates who do share views closer to my own (and that includes some Labour types and some Liberals), and withhold my support from those whom I disagree with, with a sense of honesty in both cases.

I am not, and never will be, one of those types who moans that there isn't a party that exactly matches my views.  As it stands, the Conservatives remain just about the closest- I'm sat on the infamous fag-paper between the two major parties, to use the old cliche.  Rather than moan that nobody represents my views, nor moan about the direction of the Party, I would rather have that freedom to constructively lend my support to individuals on my wavelength, or to help out on particular issues.  The direction of the Conservatives is not the issue: the issue is my own political outlook and how that corresponds to what they offer.  It is still the party I joined, but I'm not the person who joined the party.

I remain entirely positive towards the Conservatives.  Despite some lazy stereotyping by some people in this world, they remain full of decent people who want to improve this country, and full of people I would, have and will vote for.

It is a shame that you have left but given your general views on political topics, it is understandable. And at least you have remained positive towards the conservatives.

And I share some of your views on areas such as privatisation (especially PFI), where it seems to be the default option now regardless of the cost. And there's probably quite a few conservative councillors who lean towards your positions, and are not overtly ideological to the right.