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Post by batman on Jul 13, 2022 21:35:58 GMT
That's about the long and the short of it. Wasn't Jeremy Corbyn national chair of it before becoming Labour leader? But it's opponents tend to agree with the wars they oppose. And are usually sympathetic to Zionism. I may be a Zionist but I was opposed to military action in Iraq and quite a number of other wars opposed by STWC.
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Post by aargauer on Jul 13, 2022 21:43:14 GMT
But it's opponents tend to agree with the wars they oppose. And are usually sympathetic to Zionism. I may be a Zionist but I was opposed to military action in Iraq and quite a number of other wars opposed by STWC. Merseymike In 2022, I don't see how one can be anything other than a Zionist. What would happen to those Jewish people living in Israel if they were part of a Muslim majority state? They frankly would not be safe.
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Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells
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Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 13, 2022 21:43:44 GMT
It's not surprising if you know Cllr Broadwell or follow her social media accounts. She is very passionately left wing Labour and has been significantly discontented with Starmer's leadership for months. Quite a strong, knowledgeable advocate of nuclear power so will be a big loss to pro nuclear members. It used to be that the left wing of Labour was really, strongly, anti-nuclear, both weaponry and power generation; this is the tradition that Jeremy Corbyn represents. But there was always the suspicion that some of them were shills for the USSR at the time - let's put it this way, you rarely saw them demonstrating outside the Soviet embassy about their nuclear arsenal. I'm what could be described as rather Corbynite (officially I define as a left libertarian with elements of democratic socialism and Georgism) and I'm ambivalent on fission/thoroughly against nuclear weapons , yes, but the influx of the left into Labour following Corbyn's election was a much, much wider group than is usually commented on by the right of centre (some LDs and Blairites included in that RoC definition). I think councillor Broadwell fits more into a tradition of industrial socialism that is not really commonly recognised these days. There were libertarian socialists, green socialists, agrarian socialists, etc... I would argue that some of the Communist parties further left were and still are shills for the USSR, but I would not strongly attach that label to Corbyn's branch of the Labour left. The SCG may have harboured the odd shill or so, but the rest were rather neutral I feel and this rabid compulsion from the centre and right to denounce anyone who doesn't immediately condemn Russia or a non-NATO affiliated state, pre - Ukraine.
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Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells
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Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 13, 2022 21:54:54 GMT
I may be a Zionist but I was opposed to military action in Iraq and quite a number of other wars opposed by STWC. Merseymike In 2022, I don't see how one can be anything other than a Zionist. What would happen to those Jewish people living in Israel if they were part of a Muslim majority state? They frankly would not be safe. This really is the wrong thread and I'm not Merseymike, but I can explain my position (which is a common position of left anti-Zionists.) My position is I oppose all religion or ethnicity linked states. I oppose the Zionist state of Israel, seeking to replace it with a constitutionally secular state of Israel or Palestine with rights for every major ethnic groups protecting beliefs and customs. I think the 2 state solution is now impossible because of extensive settlement building in the West Bank; ironically the ultra-Orthodox parties have enabled this by supporting the underhand construction of such settlements for members of their communities to live there and sealing the fate of their future to live in a state where their religion is totally separate from the state and will become a minority in their own future states as the Palestinian population outgrows. To save the admin work, I would appreciate it if you reply to this discussion in the Israel thread.
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 14, 2022 8:06:59 GMT
I may be a Zionist but I was opposed to military action in Iraq and quite a number of other wars opposed by STWC. Merseymike In 2022, I don't see how one can be anything other than a Zionist. What would happen to those Jewish people living in Israel if they were part of a Muslim majority state? They frankly would not be safe. Israel exists, and will continue to do so, but there also needs to be a Palestinian state. I'm really not going to begin another argument about this topic, but I was making the point that on the left, Israel has become something of a dividing line - though there are certainly gradations within those who prioritise the establishment of a Palestinian state. This often is reflected in the stances taken on broader issues.
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Post by aargauer on Jul 14, 2022 8:13:14 GMT
Merseymike In 2022, I don't see how one can be anything other than a Zionist. What would happen to those Jewish people living in Israel if they were part of a Muslim majority state? They frankly would not be safe. This really is the wrong thread and I'm not Merseymike, but I can explain my position (which is a common position of left anti-Zionists.) My position is I oppose all religion or ethnicity linked states. I oppose the Zionist state of Israel, seeking to replace it with a constitutionally secular state of Israel or Palestine with rights for every major ethnic groups protecting beliefs and customs. I think the 2 state solution is now impossible because of extensive settlement building in the West Bank; ironically the ultra-Orthodox parties have enabled this by supporting the underhand construction of such settlements for members of their communities to live there and sealing the fate of their future to live in a state where their religion is totally separate from the state and will become a minority in their own future states as the Palestinian population outgrows. To save the admin work, I would appreciate it if you reply to this discussion in the Israel thread. Normally I'd absolutely agree regarding an ethnic and religious state being totally unacceptable. Here, the alternative is frankly worse. Jews would not be safe in a majority Muslim state in this area. Thus a Jewish state needs to be preserved, ideally in a two state solution (whether that means clearing settlements or giving the settlers settled status without the vote in Palestine I don't know). It sounds like Merseymike is also a Zionist given his support for a two state solution.
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 14, 2022 8:26:55 GMT
This really is the wrong thread and I'm not Merseymike, but I can explain my position (which is a common position of left anti-Zionists.) My position is I oppose all religion or ethnicity linked states. I oppose the Zionist state of Israel, seeking to replace it with a constitutionally secular state of Israel or Palestine with rights for every major ethnic groups protecting beliefs and customs. I think the 2 state solution is now impossible because of extensive settlement building in the West Bank; ironically the ultra-Orthodox parties have enabled this by supporting the underhand construction of such settlements for members of their communities to live there and sealing the fate of their future to live in a state where their religion is totally separate from the state and will become a minority in their own future states as the Palestinian population outgrows. To save the admin work, I would appreciate it if you reply to this discussion in the Israel thread. Normally I'd absolutely agree regarding an ethnic and religious state being totally unacceptable. Here, the alternative is frankly worse. Jews would not be safe in a majority Muslim state in this area. Thus a Jewish state needs to be preserved, ideally in a two state solution (whether that means clearing settlements or giving the settlers settled status without the vote in Palestine I don't know). It sounds like Merseymike is also a Zionist given his support for a two state solution. Please stop needling. Not necessary. I would not have created Israel in that area, so I am not supportive of Zionism in that sense. However, we start from where we are. I do not wish to get into another divisive argument on this topic.
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Post by aargauer on Jul 14, 2022 9:04:50 GMT
Normally I'd absolutely agree regarding an ethnic and religious state being totally unacceptable. Here, the alternative is frankly worse. Jews would not be safe in a majority Muslim state in this area. Thus a Jewish state needs to be preserved, ideally in a two state solution (whether that means clearing settlements or giving the settlers settled status without the vote in Palestine I don't know). It sounds like Merseymike is also a Zionist given his support for a two state solution. Please stop needling. Not necessary. I would not have created Israel in that area, so I am not supportive of Zionism in that sense. However, we start from where we are. I do not wish to get into another divisive argument on this topic. Not actually trying to needle you - just pointing out that the term is used like it's some kind of radical alt-right position when it's entirely mainstream. We very much are where we are and I don't really substantively disagree with you.
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Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 14, 2022 13:11:18 GMT
This really is the wrong thread and I'm not Merseymike, but I can explain my position (which is a common position of left anti-Zionists.) My position is I oppose all religion or ethnicity linked states. I oppose the Zionist state of Israel, seeking to replace it with a constitutionally secular state of Israel or Palestine with rights for every major ethnic groups protecting beliefs and customs. I think the 2 state solution is now impossible because of extensive settlement building in the West Bank; ironically the ultra-Orthodox parties have enabled this by supporting the underhand construction of such settlements for members of their communities to live there and sealing the fate of their future to live in a state where their religion is totally separate from the state and will become a minority in their own future states as the Palestinian population outgrows. To save the admin work, I would appreciate it if you reply to this discussion in the Israel thread. Normally I'd absolutely agree regarding an ethnic and religious state being totally unacceptable. Here, the alternative is frankly worse. Jews would not be safe in a majority Muslim state in this area. Thus a Jewish state needs to be preserved, ideally in a two state solution (whether that means clearing settlements or giving the settlers settled status without the vote in Palestine I don't know). It sounds like Merseymike is also a Zionist given his support for a two state solution. Have tagged you in the Israel thread with my response.
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Post by Strontium Dog on Jul 14, 2022 14:51:34 GMT
My position is I oppose all religion or ethnicity linked states. Funny how people who claim to oppose all states linked to ethnicity never seem to moan about the French living in France, or the Spanish living in Spain, or Italians in Italy, or Russians in Russia, or Japanese in Japan.
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Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 14, 2022 14:57:03 GMT
My position is I oppose all religion or ethnicity linked states. Funny how people who claim to oppose all states linked to ethnicity never seem to moan about the French living in France, or the Spanish living in Spain, or Italians in Italy, or Russians in Russia, or Japanese in Japan. I would define an ethnicity linked state as a state where the dominant ethnic group has a significant advantage. Being a majority in the state doesn't have to mean dominance.
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Post by neilm on Jul 14, 2022 15:51:44 GMT
Leicester, Western. Lindsay Broadwell, Labour to Independent. I was very surprised by this defection. I can find no trace of what the cause was, although it is certainly confirmed on the Leicester City Council website. Labour’s local website hasn’t yet caught up with the news, however: www.labourinleicester.org.uk/vote/western/She seems to live in Amsterdam so maybe they got annoyed by that and issued a 'stay local' ultimatum?
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Post by neilm on Jul 14, 2022 15:53:26 GMT
I'm not aware of any plans to build nuclear power stations in Leicester, so I'm not sure that knowledge is particularly vital! It's not a comment on her local role, I was talking nationally she's one of, if not, the strongest advocate(s) if you're pro nuclear (I'm only pro fusion personally and have had some robust debates with her on Twitter over fission), but I suspect you knew that! Everyone is pro fusion. Literally no one is against theoretical unlimited energy. The problem is practicalities.
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Post by neilm on Jul 14, 2022 15:55:21 GMT
Going back to Stop The War (or Stop The West as some people call it). What happened to all the money? Has anyone paid off their mortgage, Lavery-style?
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Post by john07 on Jul 14, 2022 16:21:57 GMT
It's not a comment on her local role, I was talking nationally she's one of, if not, the strongest advocate(s) if you're pro nuclear (I'm only pro fusion personally and have had some robust debates with her on Twitter over fission), but I suspect you knew that! Everyone is pro fusion. Literally no one is against theoretical unlimited energy. The problem is practicalities. That is the issue with fusion. I recall attending an Open University Summer School, in the early 1980s, on Technology 101 where there was a debate about nuclear power. Someone there claimed that he worked for a company that had an operational fusion power unit. The only problem is that it required more energy to be put in than could be taken out. How the hell do you contain a fusion reaction with plasma at several thousand degrees. The only practical approach is magnetism as the plasma would vapourise any known material. So you get this fusion reaction, at 150 million degrees Celsius, contained as a toros within a magnetic field, how do you get the energy out?
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Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 14, 2022 19:48:29 GMT
I was very surprised by this defection. I can find no trace of what the cause was, although it is certainly confirmed on the Leicester City Council website. Labour’s local website hasn’t yet caught up with the news, however: www.labourinleicester.org.uk/vote/western/She seems to live in Amsterdam so maybe they got annoyed by that and issued a 'stay local' ultimatum? She took a trip to Amsterdam for a while, but doesn't live there permanently.
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Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 14, 2022 19:50:46 GMT
It's not a comment on her local role, I was talking nationally she's one of, if not, the strongest advocate(s) if you're pro nuclear (I'm only pro fusion personally and have had some robust debates with her on Twitter over fission), but I suspect you knew that! Everyone is pro fusion. Literally no one is against theoretical unlimited energy. The problem is practicalities. Firstly, there are plenty anti-nuclear advocates who oppose all nuclear power and, secondly, the commercial potential of fusion is for up to 2GW power per unit, not unlimited but significant, yes.
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Post by John Chanin on Jul 14, 2022 21:26:19 GMT
Everyone is pro fusion. Literally no one is against theoretical unlimited energy. The problem is practicalities How the hell do you contain a fusion reaction with plasma at several thousand degrees. The only practical approach is magnetism as the plasma would vapourise any known material. So you get this fusion reaction, at 150 million degrees Celsius, contained as a toros within a magnetic field, how do you get the energy out? Deuterium and tritium fuse to give helium and release a high energy neutron. That's how you get the energy out.
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Post by john07 on Jul 14, 2022 21:34:01 GMT
How the hell do you contain a fusion reaction with plasma at several thousand degrees. The only practical approach is magnetism as the plasma would vapourise any known material. So you get this fusion reaction, at 150 million degrees Celsius, contained as a toros within a magnetic field, how do you get the energy out? Deuterium and tritium fuse to give helium and release a high energy neutron. That's how you get the energy out. I know that but how is this energy going to be captured? If that was remotely possible it would have been done by now. Forty years on and no apparent progress.
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Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 15, 2022 0:09:26 GMT
Deuterium and tritium fuse to give helium and release a high energy neutron. That's how you get the energy out. I know that but how is this energy going to be captured? If that was remotely possible it would have been done by now. Forty years on and no apparent progress. Entirely possible, the ITER reactor has the potential to capture this heat energy in the same way a conventional fission nuclear reactor would - via cooling. www.iter.org/
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