The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,804
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YouGov
May 31, 2020 10:32:47 GMT
Post by The Bishop on May 31, 2020 10:32:47 GMT
The expenses scandals came much later (2009). Maybe he was thinking of "back to basics / sleaze" ? Yes, which included financial stuff (cash for questions, brown envelopes)
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myth11
Non-Aligned
too busy at work!
Posts: 2,745
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Post by myth11 on May 31, 2020 12:28:46 GMT
This has been the problem, though. It should have started a couple of years ago, but because so many within the party wanted to engineer staying in, it didn't. Isn't it high time that it accepts that we really have left the EU and starts to talk about this in ways that don't suggest impending doom? And accepts that people didn;t vote to leave because they are stupid, racist, or whatever else - I'm sure some who voted leave might well be, but ultimately they voted leave because they no longer wanted to be part of the EU and if Labour had done what Jeremy wanted them to do - back signing article 50 without delay and then reach out for a cross party solution, then the country would have left the EU a couple of years before the election Small point of order please. What jeremy (or indeed Labour) thought was the right thing to do in 2017-2019 was irrelevant to the outcome as they werent in government and the actual gorvernment had no desire to reach a cross-party solution. As that would never have happened the country wouldnt have "left the EU a couple of years before the election". What would have happened, regardless of Labour policy, is what actually happened. I know some of the Corbyn fans thought that they did "win" the 2017 GE but I can confirm that they didnt There were over 400 remain voting mps and if labour had got 4 more of its own mps to vote for Clarke,s Customs Union they would have likely took control of Brexit .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 12:29:49 GMT
Small point of order please. What jeremy (or indeed Labour) thought was the right thing to do in 2017-2019 was irrelevant to the outcome as they werent in government and the actual gorvernment had no desire to reach a cross-party solution. As that would never have happened the country wouldnt have "left the EU a couple of years before the election". What would have happened, regardless of Labour policy, is what actually happened. I know some of the Corbyn fans thought that they did "win" the 2017 GE but I can confirm that they didnt There were over 400 remain voting mps and if labour had got 4 more of its own mps to vote for Clarke,s Customs Union they would have likely took control of Brexit . government likely would have ignored the indicative votes
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myth11
Non-Aligned
too busy at work!
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Post by myth11 on May 31, 2020 12:51:55 GMT
There were over 400 remain voting mps and if labour had got 4 more of its own mps to vote for Clarke,s Customs Union they would have likely took control of Brexit . government likely would have ignored the indicative votes May was looking for a way out and there were number of Tory fence sitters which a vote win could have got off the fence.
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Post by Merseymike on May 31, 2020 13:12:10 GMT
There were over 400 remain voting mps and if labour had got 4 more of its own mps to vote for Clarke,s Customs Union they would have likely took control of Brexit . government likely would have ignored the indicative votes Why ? I think May would have jumped at any of them which got a majority simply to get something through.
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YouGov
May 31, 2020 13:35:55 GMT
Post by manchesterman on May 31, 2020 13:35:55 GMT
If you think the Daily Mail-brigade and the faragistas would have let that happen... suffice to say her tenure would have been toast in quick time. Ok it was toast within a few months anyway, but she was always going to take any course of action to avoid that happening obviously. Turkeys dont vote for Xmas.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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YouGov
May 31, 2020 14:48:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 14:48:30 GMT
Its that but also the EU probably wouldn't have accepted the withdrawal agreement with a customs union
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YouGov
May 31, 2020 21:43:51 GMT
Post by thinwhiteduke on May 31, 2020 21:43:51 GMT
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Deleted
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YouGov
May 31, 2020 21:57:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 21:57:48 GMT
that's well out of line with any other polls at the moment. Outlier? or not convinced atm throughout 2017-2018 there was always a kind of back and forth. Labour are up in one poll Tories the next. I expect to see something similar here tbh. I wouldn't be surprised if Labour dropped a point for example. The most recent YouGov poll didn't show Labour picking up anymore support. It's too early to know if we might have hit a ceiling at least for the time being but cross tabs show very little Tory Labour switches despite what's happened. odds & sodds can only get us so far while the Tories hold 3/4 of the leave vote
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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YouGov
May 31, 2020 22:00:51 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 22:00:51 GMT
Boris lead at 4
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Post by manchesterman on May 31, 2020 22:38:29 GMT
*dont say anything - dont say anything - dont say anything*
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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YouGov
May 31, 2020 22:47:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2020 22:47:50 GMT
That seems very odd in a sense, but sometimes voting intention lags behind other questions a bit. The underlying trends look promising for Labour despite this poll. If Starmer crosses over on that question and stays there it becomes quite difficult for the Tories, though it has been known for a leader to recover lost support worth remembering best pm changes and VI changes are from different poll
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,804
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YouGov
Jun 1, 2020 10:20:36 GMT
Post by The Bishop on Jun 1, 2020 10:20:36 GMT
Fieldwork for this one overlaps significantly with the Opinium poll that had the lowest Tory lead since the GE, just saying.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2020 11:23:43 GMT
Fieldwork for this one overlaps significantly with the Opinium poll that had the lowest Tory lead since the GE, just saying. significantly is laying it on a bit, both polls were over two days Opinium 28-29 and YouGov 29-30. The overlap is the 29th it is significant because the length of the research was only 2 days and 1 of those days overlap in both polls so half the research is over the same period of time. However, without that context the implication is we have two bits of research that extensively cross over for an unsaid amount of days. The difference between the two looks like sampling imo, if you look at raw data YouGov have 32 to 24 and Opinium 36 to 32. The latter clearly finding more respondents likely to identify as either Labour or Conservative and significantly more Labour relative to Conservative than the former.
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
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Post by mboy on Jun 1, 2020 14:00:13 GMT
Well that was definitely worth the entire nation's media debasing themselves and throwing away an entire week of real scrutiny of Covid issues that actually matter and could have saved hundreds or thousands of lives...
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 1, 2020 14:42:20 GMT
If you think the Daily Mail-brigade and the faragistas would have let that happen... suffice to say her tenure would have been toast in quick time. Ok it was toast within a few months anyway, but she was always going to take any course of action to avoid that happening obviously. Turkeys dont vote for Xmas. They wouldn't have had a lot of choice. Not if the votes were there in parliament, and the outcome would have been leaving the EU with some sort of deal. Mind you, I always found it amusing that it was the left wing of both Labour and the Tories who were prepared to compromise, with the hardliners of the Tory and Labour right determined not to budge. And it was the Tory right who won. Pleased with that?
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Deleted
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YouGov
Jun 1, 2020 14:48:25 GMT
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mboy likes this
Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2020 14:48:25 GMT
tbf mboy is right. Even if it is an outlier this was a distraction from the reopening of schools and now we are here 1st of June and no conversation has taken place over the last week about schools reopening. I understand the desire to go after Cummings, a situation which stinks but we've let a genuine issue pass us by here
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mboy
Liberal
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Post by mboy on Jun 1, 2020 14:52:52 GMT
Its that but also the EU probably wouldn't have accepted the withdrawal agreement with a customs union Oh I think they would. The EU were still being privately urged (by UK Remainiac politicians) to publicly say negative things about everything in the hope that Brexit might be cancelled. In reality they were desperate for any reasonable deal.
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YouGov
Jun 1, 2020 15:03:00 GMT
Post by manchesterman on Jun 1, 2020 15:03:00 GMT
If you think the Daily Mail-brigade and the faragistas would have let that happen... suffice to say her tenure would have been toast in quick time. Ok it was toast within a few months anyway, but she was always going to take any course of action to avoid that happening obviously. Turkeys dont vote for Xmas. They wouldn't have had a lot of choice. Not if the votes were there in parliament, and the outcome would have been leaving the EU with some sort of deal. Mind you, I always found it amusing that it was the left wing of both Labour and the Tories who were prepared to compromise, with the hardliners of the Tory and Labour right determined not to budge. And it was the Tory right who won. Pleased with that? Gutted. When it came down to the final endgame, I would have gone for an EFTA-style arrangement (but it wasnt up to me was it). Ive said all along my commitment to Remain was purely economic.
I think youre missing my point. May would have known that what i stated above would have ensued from a "soft brexit", so would have never intended to go there on grounds of self-preservation. As it turns out they booted her out anyway, but she was probably hopeful at the time that going for a "fairly hard brexit" might have kept her in power longer.
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YouGov
Jun 1, 2020 15:03:51 GMT
Post by Merseymike on Jun 1, 2020 15:03:51 GMT
Its that but also the EU probably wouldn't have accepted the withdrawal agreement with a customs union Oh I think they would. The EU were still being privately urged (by UK Remainiac politicians) to publicly say negative things about everything in the hope that Brexit might be cancelled. In reality they were desperate for any reasonable deal. I always thought that given the result of the referendum, there would 1. not be a second referendum, and 2. we would leave the EU I do think that some remainers sincerely thought the opposite. They thought they could get a second referendum and when they did, it would result in a remain outcome I wonder if they managed to convince anyone in the EU that was a serious possibility?
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