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Post by justin124 on May 18, 2018 20:44:30 GMT
In the absence of grade inflation at both A and Degree levels the effect of that should have been to lower the level of average Degree classifications compared with 40 to 50 years ago. In reality, the opposite has happened which makes me suspect that some people awarded Third class degrees in the 1960s would now scrape a 2.1. Even at Oxbridge there have been clear signs of grade inflation - people such as David Dimbleby , Jeremy Thorpe and Edward Boyle were awarded Third class degrees in the 1950s - the same happened to Barbara Castle back in the 1930s. Nowadays Oxbridge Thirds are very rare! Although, in those days, a third-class degree at Oxford was equivalent to a lower second elsewhere. The chumps were given fourth-class degrees instead. How much evidence was there to support that? Nowadays the fourth class degree has been replaced by Pass degrees .ford did not split its Second class degrees until the mid-1980s - though fourth class degrees disappeared a fair bit earlier. |
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on May 18, 2018 20:47:11 GMT
In the absence of grade inflation at both A and Degree levels the effect of that should have been to lower the level of average Degree classifications compared with 40 to 50 years ago. In reality, the opposite has happened which makes me suspect that some people awarded Third class degrees in the 1960s would now scrape a 2.1. Even at Oxbridge there have been clear signs of grade inflation - people such as David Dimbleby , Jeremy Thorpe and Edward Boyle were awarded Third class degrees in the 1950s - the same happened to Barbara Castle back in the 1930s. Nowadays Oxbridge Thirds are very rare! I got a Scottish "Pass" in 1990. What's that worth now?  Edit: digging through Edinburgh University's website reveals my 1987-1990 grades gives me a high 2:2, just missing borderline 2:1.  |
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spqr
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Post by spqr on May 18, 2018 21:11:49 GMT
Although, in those days, a third-class degree at Oxford was equivalent to a lower second elsewhere. The chumps were given fourth-class degrees instead. How much evidence was there to support that? Nowadays the fourth class degree has been replaced by Pass degrees . The lack of distinction at Oxford between upper and lower second-class degrees, and the existence of a fourth-class degree, essentially put the third into roughly the same category as a general 2:2. For a long time (until the 1920s or thereabouts) similar numbers of fourths and firsts were awarded. Having said that, you may have a point. By the 1950s - when Thorpe and Dimbleby graduated, for example - fourths were in decline, constituting under 10 per cent of degrees awarded. They were eventually abolished in the late 1960s, as it was felt that undergraduates receiving such a degree were being disadvantaged in comparison to those graduating elsewhere. I can't say whether recipients by that stage were in pass degree territory or not, as I've never seen any of the gradations/marking systems by which different classes of degrees were awarded. I suspect that the degree was in transition from being an equivalent to a third to an archaic Oxonian version of a non-classified degree (although the 'Pass School' did still exist while fourths were around). The figures and proportions I've used come from my hazy recollection of Brian Harrison's edited volume on the history of Oxford University in the 20th Century. |
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Post by justin124 on May 18, 2018 21:20:31 GMT
How much evidence was there to support that? Nowadays the fourth class degree has been replaced by Pass degrees . The lack of distinction at Oxford between upper and lower second-class degrees, and the existence of a fourth-class degree, essentially put the third into roughly the same category as a general 2:2. For a long time (until the 1920s or thereabouts) similar numbers of fourths and firsts were awarded. Having said that, you may have a point. By the 1950s - when Thorpe and Dimbleby graduated, for example - fourths were in decline, constituting under 10 per cent of degrees awarded. They were eventually abolished in the late 1960s, as it was felt that undergraduates receiving such a degree were being disadvantaged in comparison to those graduating elsewhere. I can't say whether recipients by that stage were in pass degree territory or not, as I've never seen any of the gradations/marking systems by which different classes of degrees were awarded. I suspect that the degree was in transition from being an equivalent to a third to an archaic Oxonian version of a non-classified degree (although the 'Pass School' did still exist). The figures and proportions I've used come from my hazy recollection of Brian Harrison's edited volume on the history of Oxford University in the 20th Century. That is very interesting! I also vaguely get the impression that an Oxford First does not stand out in the way that it once did. Would David Cameron's First in PPE be comparable to Harold Wilson's First from the 1930s? I am not sure that it would. |
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Post by justin124 on May 18, 2018 21:26:58 GMT
In the absence of grade inflation at both A and Degree levels the effect of that should have been to lower the level of average Degree classifications compared with 40 to 50 years ago. In reality, the opposite has happened which makes me suspect that some people awarded Third class degrees in the 1960s would now scrape a 2.1. Even at Oxbridge there have been clear signs of grade inflation - people such as David Dimbleby , Jeremy Thorpe and Edward Boyle were awarded Third class degrees in the 1950s - the same happened to Barbara Castle back in the 1930s. Nowadays Oxbridge Thirds are very rare! I got a Scottish "Pass" in 1990. What's that worth now? Edit: digging through Edinburgh University's website reveals my 1987-1990 grades gives me a high 2:2, just missing borderline 2:1. That makes the point re-grade inflation rather well! Effectively an unchanged academic performance would now be awarded a degree two classifications higher than less than 30 years ago! |
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Post by spqr on May 18, 2018 21:30:02 GMT
The lack of distinction at Oxford between upper and lower second-class degrees, and the existence of a fourth-class degree, essentially put the third into roughly the same category as a general 2:2. For a long time (until the 1920s or thereabouts) similar numbers of fourths and firsts were awarded. Having said that, you may have a point. By the 1950s - when Thorpe and Dimbleby graduated, for example - fourths were in decline, constituting under 10 per cent of degrees awarded. They were eventually abolished in the late 1960s, as it was felt that undergraduates receiving such a degree were being disadvantaged in comparison to those graduating elsewhere. I can't say whether recipients by that stage were in pass degree territory or not, as I've never seen any of the gradations/marking systems by which different classes of degrees were awarded. I suspect that the degree was in transition from being an equivalent to a third to an archaic Oxonian version of a non-classified degree (although the 'Pass School' did still exist). The figures and proportions I've used come from my hazy recollection of Brian Harrison's edited volume on the history of Oxford University in the 20th Century. That is very interesting! I also vaguely get the impression that an Oxford First does not stand out in the way that it once did. Would David Cameron's First in PPE be comparable to Harold Wilson's First from the 1930s? I am not sure that it would.Harold Wilson got alphas in 17 of 18 finals papers, if I remember Ben Pimlott's biography rightly. It was speculated that his results were the best of any student in the 'Mods' school that decade (the 1930s). They would certainly be equivalent to a 'congratulatory first' nowadays. I've got no idea what Cameron's marks were, but they were unlikely to be anywhere near that good even if one takes grade inflation into account. |
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2018 21:31:26 GMT
I got firsts in 9 of 9 finals. Stuff that Wilson!
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Post by spqr on May 18, 2018 21:34:55 GMT
I got firsts in 9 of 9 finals. Stuff that Wilson! That is genuinely a very impressive achievement. |
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2018 21:55:53 GMT
I got firsts in 9 of 9 finals. Stuff that Wilson! That is genuinely a very impressive achievement. Not really. I was super lucky. All in 70-75 range except one 85. Probably wouldn’t have even gotten a first a few decades ago. |
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Post by justin124 on May 18, 2018 23:39:59 GMT
Given that PPE involves 9 Final papers , how was it that Wilson managed 17 from 18? Is it simply a case of course structure having changed over time?
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Post by John Chanin on May 19, 2018 7:19:23 GMT
The lack of distinction at Oxford between upper and lower second-class degrees, and the existence of a fourth-class degree, essentially put the third into roughly the same category as a general 2:2. For a long time (until the 1920s or thereabouts) similar numbers of fourths and firsts were awarded. Having said that, you may have a point. By the 1950s - when Thorpe and Dimbleby graduated, for example - fourths were in decline, constituting under 10 per cent of degrees awarded. They were eventually abolished in the late 1960s, as it was felt that undergraduates receiving such a degree were being disadvantaged in comparison to those graduating elsewhere. I can't say whether recipients by that stage were in pass degree territory or not, as I've never seen any of the gradations/marking systems by which different classes of degrees were awarded. I suspect that the degree was in transition from being an equivalent to a third to an archaic Oxonian version of a non-classified degree (although the 'Pass School' did still exist). The figures and proportions I've used come from my hazy recollection of Brian Harrison's edited volume on the history of Oxford University in the 20th Century. That is very interesting! I also vaguely get the impression that an Oxford First does not stand out in the way that it once did. Would David Cameron's First in PPE be comparable to Harold Wilson's First from the 1930s? I am not sure that it would. When I got a First (in 1971) there were just 12 awarded out of c240 people taking the course. That's 5%. My friend at Thames Poly got a 2.1. No firsts were awarded on her course. I don't think there's any doubt about grade inflation, although more people get the opportunity now, and Oxford is much more ruthlessly selective than it was in my day. My best friend got an "unclassified" degree, which is a rare beast indeed. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2018 8:11:33 GMT
In my year (2011 graduation) it was around 35% firsts IIRC...
I think the grade inflation has been somewhat enforced to ensure parity with other universitys.
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sirbenjamin
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Post by sirbenjamin on May 19, 2018 11:45:18 GMT
It's these young, trendy, uni towns (Lancaster, Chester, York etc...) where we will continue to struggle in.
Until this country brings back Higher Education, as opposed to the current system of Groupthink Indoctrination, yes.
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on May 20, 2018 12:15:40 GMT
The lack of distinction at Oxford between upper and lower second-class degrees, and the existence of a fourth-class degree, essentially put the third into roughly the same category as a general 2:2. For a long time (until the 1920s or thereabouts) similar numbers of fourths and firsts were awarded. Having said that, you may have a point. By the 1950s - when Thorpe and Dimbleby graduated, for example - fourths were in decline, constituting under 10 per cent of degrees awarded. They were eventually abolished in the late 1960s, as it was felt that undergraduates receiving such a degree were being disadvantaged in comparison to those graduating elsewhere. I can't say whether recipients by that stage were in pass degree territory or not, as I've never seen any of the gradations/marking systems by which different classes of degrees were awarded. I suspect that the degree was in transition from being an equivalent to a third to an archaic Oxonian version of a non-classified degree (although the 'Pass School' did still exist). The figures and proportions I've used come from my hazy recollection of Brian Harrison's edited volume on the history of Oxford University in the 20th Century. That is very interesting! I also vaguely get the impression that an Oxford First does not stand out in the way that it once did. Would David Cameron's First in PPE be comparable to Harold Wilson's First from the 1930s? I am not sure that it would. It varies from course to course - Oxbridge is bad at standardisation even across an institution, let alone with other universities. In general the 2:2 has got rarer in UK universities, with Cambridge (but not Oxford) being the sole hold-out about 5 years ago, and I'm unsure if it still is. Certain courses give a much higher proportion of Firsts than others (and it's not a science vs. arts distinction - sometimes you'll find it between very similar subjects). And what can be a First in one institution can be a 2:1 elsewhere (my exams for my Masters' course were certainly very much easier than my Finals exams - I suspect the same mark scheme was used, but effectively everybody got at least 5 marks than they would have done otherwise.) But in general there is insufficient standardisation to say very much concrete about grade inflation, and given changing curricula and course objectives a lot of what you can say isn't very useful. |
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