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Post by Pete Whitehead on Apr 16, 2018 21:35:01 GMT
I don't think Putney has changed much over the decades. The boundaries now are very similar to when the seat was first created in 1918, but from 1955 to 1974 the seat included Fairfield |
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Post by Khunanup on Apr 16, 2018 21:58:16 GMT
Orkney & Shetland hasn't changed its name or boundaries since 1708 (pre-dating the Union to at least 1661) and has almost consistently voted Whig, Liberal or Liberal Democrat since 1807. Ynys Môn/Anglesey hasn't changed its boundaries since it was created in 1536, with a name change from Anglesey to Ynys Môn taking effect from 1983 onwards. I suspect that Montgomeryshire is the oldest continuous mainland constituency in the UK, which has existed since 1542 with a name change from Montgomery to Montgomeryshire taking effect from 1918 onwards. I believe that it has retained the same boundaries since 1542. Orkney & Shetland has only had its current boundaries since 1918 because before then Kirkwall was in the Wick Burghs constituency and before that (from 1708 to 1832) in the Tain Burghs constituency. Like O&S they had overwhelmingly Whig/Liberal representation (in the Tain Burghs case when there was any affiliation at all). |
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Post by La Fontaine on Apr 16, 2018 21:59:48 GMT
Hexham is a good shout, at least out of the county constituencies in England. The only changes since 1885 appear to be losses to Berwick in the Rothbury area and gains from Morpeth/Wansbeck in Ponteland and surrounding areas of former Castle Morpeth. It helps that there aren't many boundaries to move - the north, west and south are county or national borders and Tynedale has quite a defined cultural orbit. How similar are the boundaries of City of York and York Central? That'd surely be on par with Lincoln (albeit with a criminal name change)? But Newburn UDC was transferred to Newcastle West in 1950 and the Newbiggin Hall estate plus Dinnington, Hazlerigg and Brunswick in 1983 (as Newcastle North). |
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Apr 16, 2018 22:06:18 GMT
Hexham is a good shout, at least out of the county constituencies in England. The only changes since 1885 appear to be losses to Berwick in the Rothbury area and gains from Morpeth/Wansbeck in Ponteland and surrounding areas of former Castle Morpeth. It helps that there aren't many boundaries to move - the north, west and south are county or national borders and Tynedale has quite a defined cultural orbit. How similar are the boundaries of City of York and York Central? That'd surely be on par with Lincoln (albeit with a criminal name change)? But Newburn UDC and most of Castle Ward RDC were transferred to Newcastle in 1974, were they not? Or were they already in Newcastle West constituency? Newburn UD was in Newcastle West but all of Castle Ward RD was in Hexham (inc. the parts annexed to Newcastle in 1974). That whole area was in the old Wansbeck (not to be confused with today's Wansbeck!) before 1950. |
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Apr 16, 2018 22:09:57 GMT
Regarding both Anglesey and Orkney & Shetland, note that before 1918 certain archaic features of the pre-Reform system remained, one of which was that technically all of the territory covered by a borough constituency was also covered by a county constituency, though only one section of the electorate (freeholders) could vote in the county constituency.
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Apr 16, 2018 22:18:59 GMT
Anyway, the only change to Shrewsbury since 1918 has been the swapping of Chirbury for Leebotwood et al in 1950.
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Post by cherrycoffin on Apr 16, 2018 22:38:32 GMT
I think West Dorset would be up there. Dorchester and Sherborne, it’s largest towns, have been there since the late 19th century, as has much of the surrounding countryside It's not changed too much, but pre-1950 election maps show that it was clearly different - and Sherborne was in North Dorset! Since then, it doesn't seem to have changed much - Wikipedia suggests that there was minor changes to what part of West Dorset District is in South Dorset in 1983. Although technically, it could be argued that the two largest towns in West Dorset now have always been there since the 19th century - there are 3 urban parishes neighbouring the relatively small Bridport Parish, which brings Bridport from being slightly smaller than Sherborne to being a fair bit larger (population wise) - quite possibly hasn't always been the case though. The current proposals for boundary changes would take in the small village of Tincleton (within the WD district) in to the constituency from South Dorset - which is a completely non-controversial move. Parts of North Dorset would also be added (probably more controversial), whilst the village of Broadmayne and the Chickerell/Chesil Bank area would be removed in to South Dorset - the former makes sense to be in the same constituency as Dorchester (but such things aren't always possible), whilst Chickerell in particular and to a lesser extent the relevants parts of Chesil Bank make more sense to be in a constituency with Weymouth. Ah, mostly correct then 😉 I’ve always considered Sherborne to be larger than Bridport, the latter being no more than a largish village on the overcrowded A35 while Sherborne has more of presence with the railway and rather notable school. Dorset’s had to be rejigged with the recent boundary commission; I wonder how many of the proposed changes would still be in effect if parliament remains at 650 seats and Dorset doesn’t lose one..? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 22:59:26 GMT
I don't think Putney has changed much over the decades. The boundaries now are very similar to when the seat was first created in 1918, but from 1955 to 1974 the seat included Fairfield The “Putney grid” was in both the pre 1955 seat and the 1955 to 1974 seat but is now mostly in Battersea. |
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Post by Andrew_S on Apr 16, 2018 23:01:42 GMT
The boundaries now are very similar to when the seat was first created in 1918, but from 1955 to 1974 the seat included Fairfield The “Putney grid” was in both the pre 1955 seat and the 1955 to 1974 seat but is now mostly in Battersea. What's the Putney Grid? A road system? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 6:53:12 GMT
The “Putney grid” was in both the pre 1955 seat and the 1955 to 1974 seat but is now mostly in Battersea. What's the Putney Grid? A road system? A series of parallel Victorian terraces. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 11:50:59 GMT
"The Grid" is more heard in my neck of the woods to describe the grid of roads south of Replingham Road. They are in the Southfields ward in the Putney constituency, although the grid can be argued to extend further south into Wimbledon/Merton. That rather larger grid definitely extends down into Wimbledon Park |
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Post by islington on Apr 17, 2018 20:45:34 GMT
Regarding both Anglesey and Orkney & Shetland, note that before 1918 certain archaic features of the pre-Reform system remained, one of which was that technically all of the territory covered by a borough constituency was also covered by a county constituency, though only one section of the electorate (freeholders) could vote in the county constituency. Sibboleth I agree about Anglesey. As you say, until 1918 almost all Parliamentary Boroughs in England and Wales were also part of the relevant County division (or divisions, if they overlapped the boundary). (From 1832, the only exceptions were Bristol, Exeter, Norwich and Nottingham, which were not part of any Parliamentary county: and, until 1885, Haverfordwest and Lichfield as well.) But did the same principle apply in Scotland? I had assumed that s35 of the 1832 Scottish Reform Act meant that Scottish Parliamentary Burghs were not part of their respective counties for electoral purposes, but I admit I'm not 100% sure about this so I'm definitely open to correction. |
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Apr 17, 2018 22:43:24 GMT
But did the same principle apply in Scotland? I had assumed that s35 of the 1832 Scottish Reform Act meant that Scottish Parliamentary Burghs were not part of their respective counties for electoral purposes, but I admit I'm not 100% sure about this so I'm definitely open to correction. You know, I'm not honestly sure? I'd always assumed so, but it would be just absolutely typical of the general incomprehensible madness of the pre-1918 franchise (the full implications of which weren't understood by historians well until the 1980s!) if that wasn't the case... |
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Post by islington on Apr 18, 2018 14:34:19 GMT
Thanks Sibboleth. I'm not sure either, so that makes two of us. On the more general question of understanding the arcana of the pre-1918 franchise, I find it helps (slightly) to recognize that the legislators of the day were not, of course, intentionally setting out to produce a complex and baffling system. It just seems that way because we look at it from a 21st-century viewpoint. So it may make more sense if we try to think ourselves, so to speak, back into a 19th-century frame of mind and for this purpose I have found it extremely helpful to immerse myself in the History of Parliament website, particularly the constituency articles for the period immediately preceding the reforms of 1832. To anyone seriously interested in pursuing this subject, i strongly recommend Philip Salmon's article ( www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1820-1832/survey/ix-english-reform-legislation ) detailing the Parliamentary process of the reform legislation in 1831-32. |
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Post by Robert Waller on Apr 18, 2018 15:17:07 GMT
I don't think my own original constituency of High Peak has changed very much since 1885 ...
... yes, I know it's had a few minor alterations round the edges.
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Apr 18, 2018 15:52:01 GMT
I don't think my own original constituency of High Peak has changed very much since 1885 ... ... yes, I know it's had a few minor alterations round the edges. Indeed I think the boundaries are exactly the same now as in 1885 with the exception that it now includes the Tintwistle parish formerly in Cheshire (which was added in 1983). Apart from that the only other changes were that a few wards from Derbyshire Dales district were included between 1983 and 1997 |
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YL
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Post by YL on Apr 18, 2018 17:55:25 GMT
I don't think my own original constituency of High Peak has changed very much since 1885 ... ... yes, I know it's had a few minor alterations round the edges. Indeed I think the boundaries are exactly the same now as in 1885 with the exception that it now includes the Tintwistle parish formerly in Cheshire (which was added in 1983). Apart from that the only other changes were that a few wards from Derbyshire Dales district were included between 1983 and 1997 The Derbyshire/Cheshire border has also been adjusted a bit around Whaley Bridge, New Mills and Marple (in the 1930s I think). Historically it ran along the River Goyt, through all three towns. That will have affected the constituency a little. |
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Post by islington on Apr 19, 2018 13:59:01 GMT
Wigan hasn't changed since 1412. The constituency was created in 1885. I know this was humour, but many a true word ... Wigan is actually a good nomination for this thread. The constituency wasn't created in 1885 as David suggested; it is actually (surprisingly to me) an ancient borough going right back to the Model Parliament of 1295. And it is one of the relatively few boroughs that were 'waved through', so to speak, by the 1832 reform without any boundary changes at all. The 1868 boundary review proposed the addition of Ince but this was rejected so the ancient boundary stayed in place and was again left unchanged, so far as I can see, in 1885 (although it was at this time that Wigan lost its second seat). The pre-1832 boundary thus survived unchanged until 1918, when Pemberton was added to the seat. Such longevity of a pre-1832 boundary is not unique, but it's pretty unusual. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 19, 2018 18:15:29 GMT
Indeed I think the boundaries are exactly the same now as in 1885 with the exception that it now includes the Tintwistle parish formerly in Cheshire (which was added in 1983). Apart from that the only other changes were that a few wards from Derbyshire Dales district were included between 1983 and 1997 The Derbyshire/Cheshire border has also been adjusted a bit around Whaley Bridge, New Mills and Marple (in the 1930s I think). Historically it ran along the River Goyt, through all three towns. That will have affected the constituency a little. There was a local referendum a few years ago when Disley considered either joining Derbyshire or Stockport. |
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Post by islington on Apr 21, 2018 9:25:24 GMT
Further to my recent post regarding Wigan, which kept its pre-reform boundary all the way down to 1918, I wondered how many constituencies might have beaten this by retaining their unreformed boundaries down the next set of comprehensive changes in 1950.
So far as English boroughs are concerned, I think I've narrowed it down to two or three. One is perhaps obvious: the City of London, as a constituency, kept the same boundary throughout until it was abolished in 1950, returning four members until 1885 and two thereafter. The other is Ipswich, which so far as I can see was substantially unaffected by successive reviews of boundaries, although it lost its second MP in 1918. Norwich, too, underwent very little change and remained an undivided two-seat constituency all the way through to 1950, although at some point (1918?) there appears to have been a small boundary extension to the north of the city.
Regarding constituencies other than English boroughs, we can count out English Parliamentary counties. They would have been single constituencies prior to 1832 but most of them were divided in 1832 and the remainder in 1885. The sole exception was Rutland, which remained a single undivided constituency until it bit the dust in 1918. But I can see that some Welsh or Scottish counties may have survived undivided right down to 1950, or even later, although there may have been boundary changes especially regarding the abolition of enclaves and exclaves. There's also the question about how we treat the relationship between Parliamentary counties and their associated boroughs, although that is a complex topic perhaps best left for another thread.
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