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Post by MacShimidh on Nov 22, 2020 20:19:03 GMT
In case you thought the Trump legal team couldn’t get anymore insane, they’ve just claimed that voter fraud led to Kelly Loeffler being the Republican candidate instead of Doug Collins. Beyond the obvious question of why Democratic voter fraud efforts would be helping a Republican and/or splitting their ticket Biden/Loeffler, it seems a bit odd to be claiming that your own candidate in the forthcoming runoff is only there because of mass voter fraud. That must be a real kick in the teeth for Loeffler, who had a personality transplant from the archetypal mega-rich country club Republican, to someone basically Q-anon-adjacent who was happy to knock around with the likes of Marjorie Taylor Greene. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes...
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jamie
Top Poster
Posts: 6,892
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Post by jamie on Nov 22, 2020 23:06:55 GMT
Quite a few failed Republican candidates are saying their election was stolen, including some in incredibly safe Democratic districts.
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Richard Allen
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Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
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Post by Richard Allen on Nov 23, 2020 18:22:35 GMT
The NY-22 court case to look at disputed ballots is turning into a debacle. Oneida County officials have provided disputed ballots and the Judge has set various standards for if they should be accepted or not but the officials don't know which of these ballots have already been included in the count.
Apparently instead of righting the relevant information on the envelopes (as is apparently required by law) they put stickers on the envelopes and the stickers have fallen off. They also failed to segregate the ballots as the Judge ordered them to do so on Friday. The Judge has asked how it can be determined if the ballots in questions have been counted and the officials have told him that there is no way to do so.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Nov 23, 2020 18:23:47 GMT
Lol. Full manual recount then? (Surely there was going to be a recount anyway?)
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Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Nov 23, 2020 18:32:17 GMT
Lol. Full manual recount then? (Surely there was going to be a recount anyway?) It is possible that a Judge would have ordered a recount anyway but New York law does not currently* provide for automatic recounts regardless of how close the election is. * A law was passed this year providing for recounts where the gap is 0.5% or less but it doesn't come into effect until next year.
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Post by timrollpickering on Nov 23, 2020 18:39:16 GMT
Given how long things are taking could that law come into force in time?!
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Nov 23, 2020 19:20:35 GMT
New York: Making America Late Again.
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Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Nov 23, 2020 20:41:13 GMT
It gets worse. Following on from the Oneida County debacle it was the turn of Madison County. They had a spreadsheet detailing all the ballots that had been challenged rejected, who had objected to them, etc. The only problem is that they couldn't match the actual ballots to the details on the spreadsheet. The Judge is apparently not best pleased with how his day is going.
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Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Nov 23, 2020 21:04:54 GMT
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Post by London Republic on Nov 23, 2020 23:14:23 GMT
The GOP have an advantage here with their messaging. Running against a Democratic trifecta appeals to both the base and the swing voters they need whereas if the Democrats try to excite their base with the promise of what such a trifecta could lead to it could alienate swing voters. For the Democrats; they should emphasise how close the Republican Party is to Trump (and how much they have stood by him), the poor record of both Loeffler & Perdue (and their refusal to accept the result), how winning the Senate Races would politically neuter both McConnell & Graham (the same bloke who tried to thow out ballots in Georgia) and the dangers of 4 years of Political Deadlock.
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Post by manchesterman on Nov 23, 2020 23:56:35 GMT
It gets worse. Following on from the Oneida County debacle it was the turn of Madison County. They had a spreadsheet detailing all the ballots that had been challenged rejected, who had objected to them, etc. The only problem is that they couldn't match the actual ballots to the details on the spreadsheet. The Judge is apparently not best pleased with how his day is going. Regardless of how everything ends up, I can only thank the great psephologist in the sky that we in the UK dont do elections like they do in the USA!!!
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Post by thisguy on Nov 23, 2020 23:57:40 GMT
The GOP have an advantage here with their messaging. Running against a Democratic trifecta appeals to both the base and the swing voters they need whereas if the Democrats try to excite their base with the promise of what such a trifecta could lead to it could alienate swing voters. For the Democrats; they should emphasise how close the Republican Party is to Trump (and how much they have stood by him), the poor record of both Loeffler & Perdue (and their refusal to accept the result), how winning the Senate Races would politically neuter both McConnell & Graham (the same bloke who tried to thow out ballots in Georgia) and the dangers of 4 years of Political Deadlock. 4 years of political deadlock will probably be the core of the Republican pitch for the run offs.
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Post by London Republic on Nov 24, 2020 0:22:07 GMT
4 years of political deadlock will probably be the core of the Republican pitch for the run offs. I would agree; in fact thats their main strategy for trying to win the 2022 Mid-Terms and the 2024 Presidential Election. But considering that the vast majority of Americans (outside Trump's base) are not particually keen on endless Political Deadlock and regular Government Shutdowns; the Democrats should use the "4 years of political deadlock" claim to their advantage.
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Post by ibfc on Nov 24, 2020 3:23:52 GMT
4 years of political deadlock will probably be the core of the Republican pitch for the run offs. I would agree; in fact thats their main strategy for trying to win the 2022 Mid-Terms and the 2024 Presidential Election. But considering that the vast majority of Americans (outside Trump's base) are not particually keen on endless Political Deadlock and regular Government Shutdowns; the Democrats should use the "4 years of political deadlock" claim to their advantage.
There is no evidence for your statement. Americans have consistently voted for deadlock every year since 2010 except for the freakish occurrence of 2016 which was also a vote for Republican governance and not Democrat governance.
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Post by London Republic on Nov 24, 2020 4:03:24 GMT
There is no evidence for your statement. Americans have consistently voted for deadlock every year since 2010 except for the freakish occurrence of 2016 which was also a vote for Republican governance and not Democrat governance. To be fair; the Democrats did win more votes than the Republicans in 2012 House Election, the only reason why the former didn't obtain a majority was due to Gerrymandering. So one could argue that the voters wanted to see a Democratic Trifecta in 2008 and 2012; thus meaning that voters where opposed to deadlocked government in 2008, 2012 and 2016.
Likewise in the last 2 Government Shutdowns (1) where quite unpopular as well.
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Post by ibfc on Nov 24, 2020 4:09:14 GMT
There is no evidence for your statement. Americans have consistently voted for deadlock every year since 2010 except for the freakish occurrence of 2016 which was also a vote for Republican governance and not Democrat governance. To be fair; the Democrats did win more votes than the Republicans in 2012 House Election, the only reason why the former didn't obtain a majority was due to Gerrymandering. So one could argue that the voters wanted to see a Democratic Trifecta in 2008 and 2012; thus meaning that voters where opposed to deadlocked government in 2008, 2012 and 2016.
Likewise in the last 2 Government Shutdowns (1) where quite unpopular as well.
Which is of no consequence to how the House of Representatives was constituted in 2012. And since those rules haven't changed, it may be more pertinent to analyse how voters whose votes actually determine elections in the United States (which in this case would probably be voters in Atlanta suburbs) feel about divided government to determine political messaging. Though Trende does make a somewhat convincing case that Atlanta suburban voters may be more amenable than suburban voters in other states to give Biden a trifecta, that still doesn't mean opposing divided government makes sense as a strategy throughout the United States.
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Post by curiousliberal on Nov 24, 2020 10:09:47 GMT
What admittedly unreliable polling and my limited anecdotal evidence suggest is that even the split-ticketers largely don't want gridlock (a recent poll had them breaking over 2:1 in favour of Republicans 'finding common ground with Biden' as opposed to keeping him in check) but naively think they'll get anything else by splitting their tickets. Compromise governance is a lot more feasible at the state and local level, but not at the federal one as long as the self-styled Grim Reaper remains at the top of the Republican Senate caucus.
That said, voters are unlikely to punish Congressional Republicans for obstructionism. One rule that has remained constant before and during the Trump administration is that the president's party receives the lion's share of the blame for gridlock from persuadable voters. It might be different this time as Biden is the first president to start without a trifecta since HW Bush (assuming Democrats don't win both GA runoffs), but I strongly suspect that's not going to make much of a difference.
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Post by thirdchill on Nov 24, 2020 11:40:32 GMT
That said, voters are unlikely to punish Congressional Republicans for obstructionism. One rule that has remained constant before and during the Trump administration is that the president's party receives the lion's share of the blame for gridlock from persuadable voters. It might be different this time as Biden is the first president to start without a trifecta since HW Bush (assuming Democrats don't win both GA runoffs), but I strongly suspect that's not going to make much of a difference. Depends on how both Biden and the Republicans act. There is a lesson in history here from Clinton and Gingrich between 94 and 96. Clinton compromised a lot but then finally said 'No' and had a few very clear 'red lines'. Republicans forced a shutdown, voters saw that they were the reason for it (having seen that Clinton did try and reach agreement) and punished them for it afterwards when it came to the 1996 Presidential election.
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Post by mrhell on Nov 24, 2020 12:08:08 GMT
That said, voters are unlikely to punish Congressional Republicans for obstructionism. One rule that has remained constant before and during the Trump administration is that the president's party receives the lion's share of the blame for gridlock from persuadable voters. It might be different this time as Biden is the first president to start without a trifecta since HW Bush (assuming Democrats don't win both GA runoffs), but I strongly suspect that's not going to make much of a difference. Depends on how both Biden and the Republicans act. There is a lesson in history here from Clinton and Gingrich between 94 and 96. Clinton compromised a lot but then finally said 'No' and had a few very clear 'red lines'. Republicans forced a shutdown, voters saw that they were the reason for it (having seen that Clinton did try and reach agreement) and punished them for it afterwards when it came to the 1996 Presidential election.
Democrat adverts invented the "Dole-Gingrich" creature with videos of the two of them together as Dole was leader of the Senate Republicans.
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Post by curiousliberal on Nov 24, 2020 13:29:47 GMT
That said, voters are unlikely to punish Congressional Republicans for obstructionism. One rule that has remained constant before and during the Trump administration is that the president's party receives the lion's share of the blame for gridlock from persuadable voters. It might be different this time as Biden is the first president to start without a trifecta since HW Bush (assuming Democrats don't win both GA runoffs), but I strongly suspect that's not going to make much of a difference. Depends on how both Biden and the Republicans act. There is a lesson in history here from Clinton and Gingrich between 94 and 96. Clinton compromised a lot but then finally said 'No' and had a few very clear 'red lines'. Republicans forced a shutdown, voters saw that they were the reason for it (having seen that Clinton did try and reach agreement) and punished them for it afterwards when it came to the 1996 Presidential election. The extent to which that was behind the presidential landslide is unclear (Dole's campaign was bad, voters approved of the state of the economy and Ross Perot had a credible third-party challenge affecting results. Whether the conditions are right for it to happen again is even less so. Republicans kept the House in 1996 and only had a net loss of 3 despite '94 being the Republican wave which gave them back control after decades in the minority. At that (much less polarised, pre-Fox News) time, McConnell was not leader of the Senate Republican caucus and his philosophy is one of obstructionism. During the Obama presidency, Congressional Democrats and the president repeatedly sold out their stated principles in attempts to find common ground, presumably with the expectation that they would be rewarded for it at the ballot box if not in the legislative chambers. They once went so far as to back a Republican bill put up as a feigned compromise. The expectation was that it was too right wing for Senate Democrats to accept and it was introduced to make them seem overly rigid, but when they actually accepted it, McConnell simply pulled the bill from the Senate floor. He considered the legislative wins to be worth less than damaging faith in any political process in which Republicans did not have a trifecta. The electorate did not really punish Republicans for this (in net terms, that is - rising polarisation certainly hurt elected Republicans in bluer areas, but it did the same to Democrats in redder places).
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