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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 7:09:22 GMT
Palestine is granted independence under an Arab majority government in 1937 by Neville Chamberlain's government. Would Zionist leaders have accepted this or would a terrorist campaign and civil war have followed?
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Post by Strontium Dog on Jan 16, 2018 9:06:16 GMT
An Arab Palestine would have been defeated in WWII with the rest of the Axis powers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 9:10:22 GMT
An Arab Palestine would have been defeated in WWII with the rest of the Axis powers. You make the assumption they would have joined the axis powers, Turkey didn't so why would an independent Palestine? |
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Post by Strontium Dog on Jan 16, 2018 10:19:35 GMT
Ideological alignment, obviously. They were thick as thieves during the war anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 10:30:15 GMT
Ideological alignment, obviously. They were thick as thieves during the war anyway. Again you presume but an independant Palestine as a Neutral would gave been much mire likely. The Mufti of Jerusalem discount not gave unqualified supporthe. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 10:34:50 GMT
Ideological alignment, obviously. They were thick as thieves during the war anyway. Again you presume but an independant Palestine as a Neutral would gave been much mire likely. The Mufti of Jerusalem discount not gave unqualified supporthe. No they would’ve been an Axis power, just like Iraq. The, still, violently anti-Semitic population of Arabs in that region would've ensured that. |
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Jan 16, 2018 10:40:39 GMT
An Arab Palestine would have been defeated in WWII with the rest of the Axis powers. You make the assumption they would have joined the axis powers, Turkey didn't so why would an independent Palestine? You realise Turkey isn't Arab, I hope, and they are not comparable. In the 1930s, the Turks and Arabs still hated each other a lot, given as how it had only been 15 years since the Arabs got out from under Turkish imperial rule. As to the original point, no of course Zionists would never have accepted a Jewish-minority country because they already had dozens of Jewish-minority countries where they were being persecuted by the majority. They were even large minorities - e.g. in Poland in the 1930s Jews were 3 million, which was 10% of the population, but that still didn't save them from annihilation. The whole point of a "homeland" is a country where your culture cannot be persecuted by a different majority. That's not unreasonable, given Jewish historical experiences. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 10:51:29 GMT
Again you presume but an independant Palestine as a Neutral would gave been much mire likely. The Mufti of Jerusalem did not have unqualified support. No they would’ve been an Axis power, just like Iraq. The, still, violently anti-Semitic population of Arabs in that region would've ensured that. No I disagree particularly as regards Iraq which did have a strongly pro British king. Nor were the Saudis under Inn Saud pro-Axis. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 10:57:47 GMT
No they would’ve been an Axis power, just like Iraq. The, still, violently anti-Semitic population of Arabs in that region would've ensured that. No I disagree particularly as regards Iraq which did have a strongly pro British king. Nor were the Saudis under Inn Saud pro-Axis. You’re right Regent ‘Abd al-llah was very pro-British until he was overthrown in a The pro-German popular revolution of Rashid Ali , during which many Jews were hunted down and brutally murdered in a pogrom. He then had to be re-installed when Churchill diverted forces to invade and topple the regime. Incidentally he was murdered and brutally dismembered in the anti-British pro-Socialist 14th July Revolution led by Brigadier General Qasim. Hardly an advert for your position is it? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 10:58:16 GMT
You make the assumption they would have joined the axis powers, Turkey didn't so why would an independent Palestine? You realise Turkey isn't Arab, I hope, and they are not comparable. In the 1930s, the Turks and Arabs still hated each other a lot, given as how it had only been 15 years since the Arabs got out from under Turkish imperial rule. As to the original point, no of course Zionists would never have accepted a Jewish-minority country because they already had dozens of Jewish-minority countries where they were being persecuted by the majority. They were even large minorities - e.g. in Poland in the 1930s Jews were 3 million, which was 10% of the population, but that still didn't save them from annihilation. The whole point of a "homeland" is a country where your culture cannot be persecuted by a different majority. That's not unreasonable, given Jewish historical experiences. Turkey is Muslim and despite centuries of Ottoman rule I doubt very much they would gave thrown their lot in with the Nazis having only recently attained independence. The independent Palestine which I am talking about would guarantee Jewish rights, but not tolerate terrorist acts or illegal immigration and they would be within their rights to crackdown to maintain law and order. |
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Post by mboy on Jan 16, 2018 11:10:28 GMT
Oh the new Palestine would guarantee their rights? Well why didn't you say so! No country had ever done that before. This would have been totally different then. Case solved.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Jan 16, 2018 11:22:15 GMT
Turkey hedged its bets during WW2, seriously considering an invasion of the southern USSR republics at one point.
It declared war on the Axis powers in early 1945, but never deployed any troops in action.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 11:30:52 GMT
Turkey hedged its bets during WW2, seriously considering an invasion of the southern USSR republics at one point. It declared war on the Axis powers in early 1945, but never deployed any troops in action. I disagree I’d say the side it took was obvious. In 1933 Einstein sent a letter to Ataturk asking him to allow Jewish professors into Turkey, Ataturk agreed. When Hitler found out he begged Ataturk not to let “Communist Professors into your country”, to which Ataturk replied “A corporal can’t make me take part in his massacres”. After that many Turkish diplomats granted Jews in Europe passports and smuggled them out. Turkey didn’t fight during WWII but it wasn’t neutral. A copy of the letter can be found here blog.nationalgeographic.org/2012/05/22/einsteins-letter-to-ataturks-turkey/ |
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Post by The Bishop on Jan 16, 2018 11:35:04 GMT
They did those things and also other things that could be considered pro-Axis, as I said it was bet hedging.
(and of course Ataturk was dead by the time WW2 started, had he still been alive things might have been a bit different admittedly)
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Post by greenhert on Jan 16, 2018 11:55:01 GMT
Turkey hedged its bets during WW2, seriously considering an invasion of the southern USSR republics at one point. It declared war on the Axis powers in early 1945, but never deployed any troops in action. By that time it was clear the Allies were already going to win World War II anyway. |
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Post by beastofbedfordshire on Jan 16, 2018 15:14:15 GMT
I doubt an arab majority palestine would be a democracy. It will end up being a depressed war torn country a la iraq, syria, lebanon etc...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 19:31:17 GMT
They did those things and also other things that could be considered pro-Axis, as I said it was bet hedging. (and of course Ataturk was dead by the time WW2 started, had he still been alive things might have been a bit different admittedly) As far as I am aware Ataturk was not an anti-Semite, he distrusted the Greeks for obvious reasons. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 19:40:42 GMT
I doubt an arab majority palestine would be a democracy. It will end up being a depressed war torn country a la iraq, syria, lebanon etc... Most people thought (and mistakenly continue to think) that Israel would be a normal western style democracy which treated all its citizens fairly but it doesn't. When it does attain its freedom there will be a huge task ahead to make it a country fit for patriots to live in after 50 years of military occupation, stealing land that doesn't belong to it, and allowing zealot thugs to trash and destroy Palestinians orchards and houses. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 19:46:57 GMT
Oh the new Palestine would guarantee their rights? Well why didn't you say so! No country had ever done that before. This would have been totally different then. Case solved. The so called "rights" in Israeli law to protect minorities, do not prevent widespread discrimination in all sectors of life for those of Arab ethnicity. So you have little cause to say a independent Palestinian State would act in worse manner. I suspect that the Palestinians after all the grief given to them by the Israeli occupiers and makers of the new Apartheid , will have learned something the Israelis have forgotten. |
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Post by iain on Jan 17, 2018 19:49:26 GMT
Oh the new Palestine would guarantee their rights? Well why didn't you say so! No country had ever done that before. This would have been totally different then. Case solved. The so called "rights" in Israeli law to protect minorities, do not prevent widespread discrimination in all sectors of life for those of Arab ethnicity. So you have little cause to say a independent Palestinian State would act in worse manner. I suspect that the Palestinians after all the grief given to them by the Israeli occupiers and makers of the new Apartheid , will have learned something the Israelis have forgotten. That looks like a clear case of wishful thinking. |
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