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Post by yellowperil on Aug 13, 2017 14:43:37 GMT
Baggy broad-church parties tend to a lot of nefarious goings on and finish up with a load of murders- almost as bad as mid-summer parties.
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Post by carlton43 on Aug 13, 2017 15:55:47 GMT
If we had a political party for every member of the electorate, reflecting their views perfectly, Just Looking would still demand RON and say that the party matching his views perfectly wasn't enough. Just so!
JL and I would consider the shiny new party designed to suit our every whim and after a brief night of reflection I would see a sliver of schism because I had moved on a smidgeon, whilst JL would already see clear pink water with his 'one time' party and be seeking inventive means of vote spoiling with attitude.
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Post by carlton43 on Aug 13, 2017 16:08:31 GMT
IN PRAISE OF THE BROAD BAGGY PARTY
These are so much better than narrow/sectarian/single-issue/geographic/demographic parties keeping a pure fine small flame alight.
A broad baggy all-encompassing party that is part comfort blanket, part family, part irritant and part enemy, keeps us whole, sane, real and human. It makes us rub along in a form of the real society it attempts to reflect and to represent. It makes us adjust, temper and accommodate as we should and as we must to make our party and the greater society work. The purity of smaller parties is a potential danger and a continuing irrelevance.
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Post by finsobruce on Aug 18, 2017 16:46:37 GMT
I don't think a truly 'ideologically coherent party' is even possible. The only way that you could achieve true ideological coherence would be if every political party had only one member! and even then.... |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Aug 20, 2017 9:27:45 GMT
I don't think a truly 'ideologically coherent party' is even possible. The only way that you could achieve true ideological coherence would be if every political party had only one member! Even then, Merseymike would want periodic purges! |
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Post by Merseymike on Aug 20, 2017 15:54:21 GMT
I don't think a truly 'ideologically coherent party' is even possible. The only way that you could achieve true ideological coherence would be if every political party had only one member! Even then, Merseymike would want periodic purges! Not true. I'm just not particularly enamoured by the broad church catch all parties. The fact that Trident and myself are in the same party is patently silly but with only one party to contain everything from centre to left it's inevitable |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Aug 20, 2017 16:56:48 GMT
Not true. I'm just not particularly enamoured by the broad church catch all parties. The fact that Trident and myself are in the same party is patently silly but with only one party to contain everything from centre to left it's inevitable I was only teasing, Mike. |
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Post by Merseymike on Aug 20, 2017 17:09:56 GMT
Not true. I'm just not particularly enamoured by the broad church catch all parties. The fact that Trident and myself are in the same party is patently silly but with only one party to contain everything from centre to left it's inevitable I was only teasing, Mike. I know....but that doesn't make my frustration any less . I really loathe the right of the Labour party. They stand for nothing worthwhile and most could easily be Tories with a few tweaks of emphasis. I prefer a proper choice not woolly centrism! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2017 18:54:50 GMT
ok bit of a controversial one here, but may I suggest the Nazi Party as a candidate?
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Aug 20, 2017 19:03:02 GMT
You can suggest it but it won't do. The Nazis were ideologically all over the place. Read up on Gregor Strasser.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2017 19:19:36 GMT
You can suggest it but it won't do. The Nazis were ideologically all over the place. Read up on Gregor Strasser. Strasser wasn't on the scene after 1934, and AH rejected his ideas so I think they were pretty faithful to the party programme and what AH wrote in Mein Kampf after that. If not the Nazis how about the Spanish Falange party of Franco or Oswald Moseley's New Party? |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Aug 20, 2017 19:27:39 GMT
You can suggest it but it won't do. The Nazis were ideologically all over the place. Read up on Gregor Strasser. Well, they did have the coherent ideology of being a bunch of crooks and charlatans, and of grabbing total power so that they could rob with impunity. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2017 19:30:13 GMT
You can suggest it but it won't do. The Nazis were ideologically all over the place. Read up on Gregor Strasser. Well, they did have the coherent ideology of being a bunch of crooks and charlatans, and of grabbing total power so that they could rob with impunity. Are you inferring the Tory party shares the same characteristics?  |
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Post by jigger on Aug 20, 2017 19:32:29 GMT
Well, they did have the coherent ideology of being a bunch of crooks and charlatans, and of grabbing total power so that they could rob with impunity. Are you inferring the Tory party shares the same characteristics? Is there a dislike button? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2017 19:35:55 GMT
Are you inferring the Tory party shares the same characteristics? Is there a dislike button?   |
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Aug 20, 2017 19:37:15 GMT
You can suggest it but it won't do. The Nazis were ideologically all over the place. Read up on Gregor Strasser. Strasser wasn't on the scene after 1934, and AH rejected his ideas so I think they were pretty faithful to the party programme and what AH wrote in Mein Kampf after that. If not the Nazis how about the Spanish Falange party of Franco or Oswald Moseley's New Party? I think you have a fair point wrt the Strassers and the Black Front element. However it seems to me that firstly the tension between nationalism and even a sort of lip-service socialism was always present; and secondly that Hitler's approach to leadership - floating above a sort of "creative anarchy" - allowed all sorts of weirdnesses such as Himmler's mysticism to bubble about. The Nazi attitude to Christianity, for example, seems fairly contradictory to me - alternately rejecting it on a Nietzschean basis of interference with social darwinism, toying with paganism, but then sucking up to the church as a source of authority and as a justification for anti-semitism. TBH I just don't think any of them had the sort of intellectual credentials to come up with a coherent ideology. Whatever you think of Marxism, Marx, Engels and many of their followers were serious thinkers. |
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Post by jigger on Aug 20, 2017 19:42:19 GMT
Is there a dislike button? Just don't find it funny to equate the Conservative Party - or indeed any serious political party in the United Kingdom, but particularly the Conservative Party, given its long, illustrious and very successful history - with the Nazi party and a regime that systematically murdered millions of people due to an irrational hatred. It really demeans anyone who makes the equation, even "in jest". |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 20:11:05 GMT
Strasser wasn't on the scene after 1934, and AH rejected his ideas so I think they were pretty faithful to the party programme and what AH wrote in Mein Kampf after that. If not the Nazis how about the Spanish Falange party of Franco or Oswald Moseley's New Party? I think you have a fair point wrt the Strassers and the Black Front element. However it seems to me that firstly the tension between nationalism and even a sort of lip-service socialism was always present; and secondly that Hitler's approach to leadership - floating above a sort of "creative anarchy" - allowed all sorts of weirdnesses such as Himmler's mysticism to bubble about. The Nazi attitude to Christianity, for example, seems fairly contradictory to me - alternately rejecting it on a Nietzschean basis of interference with social darwinism, toying with paganism, but then sucking up to the church as a source of authority and as a justification for anti-semitism. TBH I just don't think any of them had the sort of intellectual credentials to come up with a coherent ideology. Whatever you think of Marxism, Marx, Engels and many of their followers were serious thinkers. Re Marx and Engels, yes I would agree. However with "Leninism" or "Stalinism" it would be difficult to use the word "coherent" or even "ideology". |
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Aug 22, 2017 1:47:52 GMT
You can suggest it but it won't do. The Nazis were ideologically all over the place. Read up on Gregor Strasser. Strasser wasn't on the scene after 1934, and AH rejected his ideas so I think they were pretty faithful to the party programme and what AH wrote in Mein Kampf after that. If not the Nazis how about the Spanish Falange party of Franco or Oswald Moseley's New Party? The Falange wasn't really incoherent: it wasn't ever set up to be (it was a merger of a series of parties/groups around 1937/8) and Franco was quite open about being a pro-Catholic anti-Communist Spanish nationalist with that meaning whatever it meant on any one given day. He was a bit incoherent when it came to regional rights though, which stoked up a lot of resentments. |
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slon
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Post by slon on Aug 22, 2017 9:30:41 GMT
I think there has been a measure of ideological coherence in the UK at least for the two main parties.
- The Conservative party has always been the guardian of the established social order, meaning the continued prosperity and power of the wealthy and influential by policies favoring the rich to the actual disadvantage to the rest.
- The Labour party is the other way round "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" so aimed at policy to reduce prosperity and power of the wealthy and in doing so theoretically improve the lot of the rest.
Neither policy actually works when take to the extreme as both lead to a sort of feudal system (one of inherited wealth, the other of leftist sycophants) so both water it down a bit.
Things like gay rights, fox hunting, foreign policy are really peripheral issues not to be confused with core ideology.
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