timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 22, 2019 19:03:55 GMT
Warren reacts to her falling polls by going for a nuclear option: Not even a majority of registered Democrats support this, so while it’s possible it might help her knock Bernie out, it gives Trump so much ammo come the election that beating her now looks likely IMO. Reacts to her falling polls by making a speech in February endorsing Sheila Jackson Lee’s Bill, a companion to one she introduced into the Senate that was co-sponsored by Harris, booker and Sanders, which merely calls for the formation of a commission to study whether reparations are a practical answer to the issue. Yep, that’s handing the election to Trump for sure; it’s taken you nine months to notice so earth shattering was it.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 22, 2019 21:05:32 GMT
Amusingly, America's first war after independence was caused by a failure to pay reparations for enslaving American citizens (the Barbary War).
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Nov 22, 2019 21:51:06 GMT
It's very Old Testament this sins of ancestors being borne by descendants, yeah, unto the fourth generation, for THE LORD is a vengeful god. Whatever happened to the Elightenment, the principles of which the United States was supposedly founded on.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Nov 23, 2019 1:11:24 GMT
Warren not having a very good day (not as bad as Jo Swinson's maybe, but still bad):
It's all a bit Harriet Harman I think...
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 23, 2019 13:02:54 GMT
It's very Old Testament this sins of ancestors being borne by descendants, yeah, unto the fourth generation, for THE LORD is a vengeful god. Whatever happened to the Elightenment, the principles of which the United States was supposedly founded on.
It strikes me that Algeria should have to pay reparations to Iceland.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2019 13:12:47 GMT
It's very Old Testament this sins of ancestors being borne by descendants, yeah, unto the fourth generation, for THE LORD is a vengeful god. Whatever happened to the Elightenment, the principles of which the United States was supposedly founded on.
It strikes me that Algeria should have to pay reparations to Iceland. President Abdoulaye Wade of Senegal delivered a stinging rebuke yesterday to fellow Africans demanding reparations from Britain and America as atonement for the slave trade.
Mr Wade, a descendant of slave-owning African kings, said hardly anybody was free of the taint of slavery.
He declared: "If one can claim reparations for slavery, the slaves of my ancestors, or their descendants, can also claim money from me. Slavery has been practised by all people in the world." (2001)
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J.G.Harston
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Post by J.G.Harston on Nov 23, 2019 16:12:55 GMT
It strikes me that Algeria should have to pay reparations to Iceland. President Abdoulaye Wade of Senegal delivered a stinging rebuke yesterday to fellow Africans demanding reparations from Britain and America as atonement for the slave trade.
Mr Wade, a descendant of slave-owning African kings, said hardly anybody was free of the taint of slavery.
He declared: "If one can claim reparations for slavery, the slaves of my ancestors, or their descendants, can also claim money from me. Slavery has been practised by all people in the world." (2001) Britain spent 125 years patrolling the West African coast, stamping out the slave trade, capturing slave ship, liberating slaves, giving them land, at a huge cost in money and manpower.
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Post by curiousliberal on Nov 23, 2019 16:24:42 GMT
Warren reacts to her falling polls by going for a nuclear option: Not even a majority of registered Democrats support this, so while it’s possible it might help he knock Bernie out, it gives Trump so much ammo come the election that beating her now looks likely IMO. Trump will win the popular vote too next time. In a country that polarised, I doubt it. A lot of Democrats and independents would at least dislike an economic reparations policy, but most of the sources which could persuade them to switch their vote on the basis of it (if that is what Warren eventually adopts) will have been discredited and their warnings won't be believed. Remember, Trump made a mockery of so-called family values and won Evangelicals.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2019 16:49:45 GMT
Trump will win the popular vote too next time. In a country that polarised, I doubt it. A lot of Democrats and independents would at least dislike an economic reparations policy, but most of the sources which could persuade them to switch their vote on the basis of it (if that is what Warren eventually adopts) will have been discredited and their warnings won't be believed. Remember, Trump made a mockery of so-called family values and won Evangelicals. I was mocking "reparations" specifically, but my underlying point was quite serious. The Democrats are unhealthily self-absorbed, and unable to see - let alone comprehend - how toxic they have become in the eyes of a large part of the electorate by propounding or indulging this kind of nonsense. They thought they couldn't lose last time, either.
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Post by curiousliberal on Nov 23, 2019 16:53:04 GMT
In a country that polarised, I doubt it. A lot of Democrats and independents would at least dislike an economic reparations policy, but most of the sources which could persuade them to switch their vote on the basis of it (if that is what Warren eventually adopts) will have been discredited and their warnings won't be believed. Remember, Trump made a mockery of so-called family values and won Evangelicals. I was mocking "reparations" specifically, but my underlying point was quite serious. The Democrats are unhealthily self-absorbed, and unable to see - let alone comprehend - how toxic they have become in the eyes of a large part of the electorate by propounding or indulging this kind of nonsense. They thought they couldn't lose last time, either. Primaries - especially those with large fields and lacking clear frontrunners - are bound to be absorbed. This was true for the Republicans in 2016, probably true for the Democrats in 2008, and so on; far from a death sentence in and of itself, as long as they don't force the ultimate nominee into a series of compromising positions. By the way, the Democrats haven't tacked to the left and struck out deeper into progressivism because they think they can't lose. Some think that after the most moderate candidate lost, their best path to beating Trump is enthusing the base with exciting and unapologetically pro-Democrat policies. In about a decade, I expect this analysis to be correct, but right now it will cost them in the electoral college (the argument often ties into attempting to win through the Sun Belt instead of the midwest, which I'd wager is still a tough ask).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2019 17:12:46 GMT
I was mocking "reparations" specifically, but my underlying point was quite serious. The Democrats are unhealthily self-absorbed, and unable to see - let alone comprehend - how toxic they have become in the eyes of a large part of the electorate by propounding or indulging this kind of nonsense. They thought they couldn't lose last time, either. Primaries - especially those with large fields and lacking clear frontrunners - are bound to be absorbed. This was true for the Republicans in 2016, probably true for the Democrats in 2008, and so on; far from a death sentence in and of itself, as long as they don't force the ultimate nominee into a series of compromising positions. By the way, the Democrats haven't tacked to the left and struck out deeper into progressivism because they think they can't lose. Some think that after the most moderate candidate lost, their best path to beating Trump is enthusing the base with exciting and unapologetically pro-Democrat policies. In about a decade, I expect this analysis to be correct, but right now it will cost them in the electoral college (the argument often ties into attempting to win through the Sun Belt instead of the midwest, which I'd wager is still a tough ask). Rather depends on what "exciting and unapologetically pro-Democrat policies" might be, and whether they enthuse the party base at the expense of the voters. Still, not my problem.
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 23, 2019 20:54:43 GMT
In a country that polarised, I doubt it. A lot of Democrats and independents would at least dislike an economic reparations policy, but most of the sources which could persuade them to switch their vote on the basis of it (if that is what Warren eventually adopts) will have been discredited and their warnings won't be believed. Remember, Trump made a mockery of so-called family values and won Evangelicals. I was mocking "reparations" specifically, but my underlying point was quite serious. The Democrats are unhealthily self-absorbed, and unable to see - let alone comprehend - how toxic they have become in the eyes of a large part of the electorate by propounding or indulging this kind of nonsense. They thought they couldn't lose last time, either. Again you are being economical with the actualité; all Warren has done is introduced a Bill, for the third year running, in January, co-sponsored by every Democrat in Congress who has entered the nominating race, including “centrists” now departed like Tim Ryan, that would merely form a commission to explore whether the concept of reparations works, effectively punting the decision into the long grass whilst being seen amongst African Americans to do something. The context of the speech you’ve quoted was to a large African American church in Atlanta where she’s trying to chip into Biden’s lead amongst African American voters, where she also trails Sanders. The primaries are a place where you float every policy imaginable and see whether it has legs; at this stage you’re not listing your priorities for your first hundred days, and many ideas discussed now never see the light of day post-Convention when the real battle is joined. For the record polling is also clearly showing that so-called moderate or independent voters are becoming more Democratic on every tested issue except abortion and wholesale Medicare For All (hence Warren’s phase in policy compared to Sanders’ all-in abolish private healthcare immediately) as the Republicans lurch even farther to the right.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Nov 24, 2019 0:21:23 GMT
Lol. "I'm not saying I want to definitely do this totally unacceptable thing, I'm just saying that we should investigate how we would do this totally unacceptable thing. But yes, it is true that the first step of doing this totally unacceptable thing would be to investigate how we would do it. So in one sense we are not starting the process of reparations; but in another, more accurate, sense...we are indeed starting the process of reparations."
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 24, 2019 0:25:10 GMT
Lol. "I'm not saying I want to definitely do this totally unacceptable thing, I'm just saying that we should investigate how we would do this totally unacceptable thing. But yes, it is true that the first step of doing this totally unacceptable thing would be to investigate how we would do it. So in one sense we are not starting the process of reparations; but in another, more accurate, sense...we are indeed starting the process of reparations." Sir Humphrey would be proud of you 😉
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mondialito
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Post by mondialito on Nov 24, 2019 1:10:50 GMT
Unless that latter figure improves, Pete Buttigieg will not be the Democratic nominee and putting him on the ticket as VP would be difficult to justify.
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Post by curiousliberal on Nov 24, 2019 1:28:18 GMT
Unless that latter figure improves, Pete Buttigieg will not be the Democratic nominee and putting him on the ticket as VP would be difficult to justify. It is just one poll. IIRC he seems to be in the low-mid single figures in averages, which is not much better, but a start (and recent polling in South Carolina suggests his field operations there have increased that a bit more - the data is quite shaky on this, but his averages there means he'd have to be crushing it with white voters to get ~7% in the poll average there, and the evidence suggests he isn't). Iowa and NH victories might boost him a bit - I can see them doing that just enough for him to win assuming he has significantly higher levels of support amongst voters of other ethnicities. All that said, it's a pretty dire indicator and I have wondered whether Buttigieg victories in early states could lead to a new opening for, say, Sanders (who is surprisingly popular amongst Biden voters) emerging as the key challenger to Buttigieg (assuming Biden and Harris drop out after early state failures) and winning due to Buttigieg's particular weakness amongst black voters.
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mondialito
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Post by mondialito on Nov 24, 2019 11:44:46 GMT
Unless that latter figure improves, Pete Buttigieg will not be the Democratic nominee and putting him on the ticket as VP would be difficult to justify. It is just one poll. IIRC he seems to be in the low-mid single figures in averages, which is not much better, but a start (and recent polling in South Carolina suggests his field operations there have increased that a bit more - the data is quite shaky on this, but his averages there means he'd have to be crushing it with white voters to get ~7% in the poll average there, and the evidence suggests he isn't). Iowa and NH victories might boost him a bit - I can see them doing that just enough for him to win assuming he has significantly higher levels of support amongst voters of other ethnicities. All that said, it's a pretty dire indicator and I have wondered whether Buttigieg victories in early states could lead to a new opening for, say, Sanders (who is surprisingly popular amongst Biden voters) emerging as the key challenger to Buttigieg (assuming Biden and Harris drop out after early state failures) and winning due to Buttigieg's particular weakness amongst black voters. As you say, it is one poll but the trend has been clear for a while. Buttigieg has shown a tin ear to concerns around his handling of racism within South Bend Police, and his campaign staff implying the low support is driven primarily by homophobia is unwise to say the least.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Nov 24, 2019 11:46:57 GMT
As you say, it is one poll but the trend has been clear for a while. Buttigieg has shown a tin ear to concerns around his handling of racism within South Bend Police, and his campaign staff implying the low support is driven primarily by homophobia is unwise to say the least. Yeah, that will work
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Nov 24, 2019 13:44:29 GMT
But it's the lefty thing, isn't it? Failure to vote for a woman is due to sexism, failure to vote for a non-white is due to racism, failure to vote for a Muslim is due to Islamophobia, etc. Sauce for the goose...
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timmullen1
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Post by timmullen1 on Nov 24, 2019 14:02:28 GMT
It is just one poll. IIRC he seems to be in the low-mid single figures in averages, which is not much better, but a start (and recent polling in South Carolina suggests his field operations there have increased that a bit more - the data is quite shaky on this, but his averages there means he'd have to be crushing it with white voters to get ~7% in the poll average there, and the evidence suggests he isn't). Iowa and NH victories might boost him a bit - I can see them doing that just enough for him to win assuming he has significantly higher levels of support amongst voters of other ethnicities. All that said, it's a pretty dire indicator and I have wondered whether Buttigieg victories in early states could lead to a new opening for, say, Sanders (who is surprisingly popular amongst Biden voters) emerging as the key challenger to Buttigieg (assuming Biden and Harris drop out after early state failures) and winning due to Buttigieg's particular weakness amongst black voters. As you say, it is one poll but the trend has been clear for a while. Buttigieg has shown a tin ear to concerns around his handling of racism within South Bend Police, and his campaign staff implying the low support is driven primarily by homophobia is unwise to say the least. His campaign staff may be implying it; African American voters, led by many religious leaders, in South Carolina particularly are outright saying it, no attempts to gloss it over.
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