mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 22,453
Member is Online
|
Post by mboy on Aug 10, 2017 12:48:30 GMT
In any event, I would point out that the SDP-Liberal Alliance failed to replace the Labour Party as the second most popular party at any General Election (and it really would have to be a General election, rather than a party supplanting them at local elections, before I could consider voting for a party other than Lab/Con). Indeed the Alliance didnt win a general election, due to a number of actors including the Falklands war, but you said "it is very difficult to conceive of a realistic scenario" - when in fact 1981-1983 was itself a realistic scenario, and even when that scenario collapsed Labour still beat the Alliance by only 2% in votes.
|
|
|
Post by jigger on Aug 10, 2017 13:33:15 GMT
There are very few things that I would die in the ditch for politically - the only three I can really think of is Brexit (I have always supported leaving the European Union since the Treaty of Maastricht), English independence (which I have supported since we were attacked in Glasgow on a family holiday in the 1990s merely for being English) and the National Health Service (the finest invention of the Labour Party). I suppose I consider myself in the centre - but most people consider themselves to be in the centre so that's not particularly useful. Thus I am quite happy to vote both Conservative and Labour, as both those parties (whilst they do have very left-wing and right-wing members) try to appeal (and clearly successfully did so at the recent election) to the centre. I am only really a Labour leaning voter at the moment because of Jeremy Corbyn. If Jeremy wasn't leader I suppose I would still vote Labour, but it really would take very little (in that circumstance) to persuade me to vote Conservative. As to why I am such a big fan of Jeremy Corbyn, it is because I admire his integrity and honesty. The fact that he has not compromised on his principles in his entire political life (though I don't agree with all of them - particularly his secret republicanism) is worthy of the greatest respect in my opinion. Furthermore I strongly disliked the fact that he was subject to constant ridicule in the press and never understood when he was cast as "unelectable" - any person who leads the Labour or Conservative parties into a general election cannot be described as "unelectable"- and the negativity of the Conservative campaign - it is perfectly acceptable to attack a principle - but to attack an individual who just wants to do his best and make his country a better place was a big no-no for me. In answer to greenchristian my local council (Knowsley) is a Labour fiefdom where the Liberal Democrats provide what limited opposition there is to Labour. I think the local Labour party do a good job and so am quite happy voting for them. When I lived in Sefton, I usually voted Conservative in local elections, because I thought that a Conservative council would be more likely to favour the wealthier parts of the borough where we lived.
|
|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 10, 2017 16:52:06 GMT
There are very few things that I would die in the ditch for politically - the only three I can really think of is Brexit (I have always supported leaving the European Union since the Treaty of Maastricht), English independence (which I have supported since we were attacked in Glasgow on a family holiday in the 1990s merely for being English) and the National Health Service (the finest invention of the Labour Party). I suppose I consider myself in the centre - but most people consider themselves to be in the centre so that's not particularly useful. Thus I am quite happy to vote both Conservative and Labour, as both those parties (whilst they do have very left-wing and right-wing members) try to appeal (and clearly successfully did so at the recent election) to the centre. I am only really a Labour leaning voter at the moment because of Jeremy Corbyn. If Jeremy wasn't leader I suppose I would still vote Labour, but it really would take very little (in that circumstance) to persuade me to vote Conservative. As to why I am such a big fan of Jeremy Corbyn, it is because I admire his integrity and honesty. The fact that he has not compromised on his principles in his entire political life (though I don't agree with all of them - particularly his secret republicanism) is worthy of the greatest respect in my opinion. Furthermore I strongly disliked the fact that he was subject to constant ridicule in the press and never understood when he was cast as "unelectable" - any person who leads the Labour or Conservative parties into a general election cannot be described as "unelectable"- and the negativity of the Conservative campaign - it is perfectly acceptable to attack a principle - but to attack an individual who just wants to do his best and make his country a better place was a big no-no for me. In answer to greenchristian my local council (Knowsley) is a Labour fiefdom where the Liberal Democrats provide what limited opposition there is to Labour. I think the local Labour party do a good job and so am quite happy voting for them. When I lived in Sefton, I usually voted Conservative in local elections, because I thought that a Conservative council would be more likely to favour the wealthier parts of the borough where we lived. Aren't those statements mutually exclusive?
|
|
mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 22,453
Member is Online
|
Post by mboy on Aug 10, 2017 20:34:29 GMT
As to why I am such a big fan of {X}, it is because I admire his integrity and honesty. The fact that he has not compromised on his principles in his entire political life (though I don't agree with all of them - particularly his {Y}) is worthy of the greatest respect in my opinion. Furthermore I strongly disliked the fact that he was subject to constant ridicule in the press and never understood when he was cast as "unelectable" That paragraph is equally applicable to Nigel Farage. I simply do not understand why people think "not compromised on his principles in his entire political life" is something to lauded in and of itself. Adolph Hitler also did not compromise on his principles in his entire political life. Round of applause for Adolph? No - because what matters is whether those principles are sound, and unfortunately a lot of Corbyn's principles are very far from sound.
|
|
|
Post by greenchristian on Aug 11, 2017 8:28:53 GMT
As to why I am such a big fan of {X}, it is because I admire his integrity and honesty. The fact that he has not compromised on his principles in his entire political life (though I don't agree with all of them - particularly his {Y}) is worthy of the greatest respect in my opinion. Furthermore I strongly disliked the fact that he was subject to constant ridicule in the press and never understood when he was cast as "unelectable" That paragraph is equally applicable to Nigel Farage. I simply do not understand why people think "not compromised on his principles in his entire political life" is something to lauded in and of itself. Adolph Hitler also did not compromise on his principles in his entire political life. Round of applause for Adolph? No - because what matters is whether those principles are sound, and unfortunately a lot of Corbyn's principles are very far from sound. Not sure it is applicable to Nigel Farage, who has, at points, argued for opposite policies on consecutive days (ISTR a point where he flipped between wanting to privatise the NHS and wanting to protect it). In an age where the typical image of the politician is the insincere spin-doctor approach of Blair and Cameron, it's no wonder that many people admire politicians who appear to have a consistent set of principles. Those politicians stand out from the flip-flopping hypocrisy that many people assume is the norm. The fact is that people are more likely to trust somebody who sticks to their guns than they are somebody who will change their view with the opinion polls. People like jigger presumably value knowing where they stand with a political leader more than they value leaders who appear to agree with them for now. Yes, it is important what those principles are. But it's easy to understand why having principles and sticking to them is often seen as a good thing in and of itself. That said, there are significant flaws in the basis of his(?) political beliefs. With his main principle of supporting the two party system, it's less than a century since the last time we saw one of the main two parties replaced. We came very close to it happening again in the early 1980s, and it's entirely possible that the reversion to two-party politics we saw in this year's General Election is merely a blip in a longer-term move towards a genuine multi-party system. It's quite clear, if you look at the evidence, that the two party system is far less embedded in British culture than many assume.
|
|
|
Post by kipper on Aug 20, 2017 13:28:56 GMT
I'm from Sweden but genres from Finland.
I'm 31 old.
I'm white and Lutheran Christian from start position.
I like snus in lips and politics acrosses this world's.
I like Hockey and Football in Sports and with more.
Music I prefer. some Metal , Techno , Dance , Pop.
Enjoy bodys to like me in this message board.
|
|
mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 22,453
Member is Online
|
Post by mboy on Aug 20, 2017 17:02:08 GMT
Music I prefer. some Metal , Techno , Dance , Pop. Finally!
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Aug 20, 2017 17:03:07 GMT
I'm from Sweden but genres from Finland. I'm 31 old.
I'm white and Lutheran Christian from start position.
I like snus in lips and politics acrosses this world's.
I like Hockey and Football in Sports and with more.
Music I prefer. some Metal , Techno , Dance , Pop.
Enjoy bodys to like me in this message board.
An overt Kipper who likes 'snus in lips' cannot be all bad!
|
|
|
Post by anthony on Aug 21, 2017 9:33:13 GMT
As to why I am such a big fan of Jeremy Corbyn, it is because I admire his integrity and honesty. You mean like faking photos of him sitting on overcrowded trains, "dealing with" existing student loans or the terrible way he dealt with Thangam Debbonaire. IMO Corbyn's a machine politician who works very hard to maintain his 'authentic' image.
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,790
|
Post by The Bishop on Aug 21, 2017 10:30:58 GMT
Two of those are hyped largely non-issues IMO. I will agree, however, that the third one you mention was not his finest moment.
|
|
|
Post by anthony on Aug 21, 2017 12:56:54 GMT
Two of those are hyped largely non-issues IMO. I will agree, however, that the third one you mention was not his finest moment. They may be over-hyped, but I think there's a lot of clever positioning going on. The train photo was faked, intended to convey an image. The "I'll deal with it" was intended to mean one thing, but be plausibly deniable, same with Labour's positioning over Brexit. It's all very Cheshire Cat-ish.
|
|
albion
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,270
|
Post by albion on Aug 21, 2017 12:58:08 GMT
Two of those are hyped largely non-issues IMO. I will agree, however, that the third one you mention was not his finest moment. But rather less serious than when the allegations around the Islington Childrens Home scandal were reported to him and he did nothing - not even reporting to the police. The details of the scandal can best be read in the multi part series in the Islington Gazette published in May this year. They approached Corbyn for comment and he failed to even respond. At least Emily Thornberry had the decency to speak to the journalists. Until Corbyn comes out and says exactly what he knew and when and what he did about it he will be no more fit to be a senior politician than is Margaret Hodge (who has also been proven to have done nothing when told by Dr Liz Davies, a senior social worker and now academic).
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,790
|
Post by The Bishop on Aug 21, 2017 13:30:42 GMT
You do seem very exercised about this - though one might have thought somebody in the MSM might be onto it if things were really that serious?
|
|
|
Post by jigger on Aug 21, 2017 14:06:16 GMT
As to why I am such a big fan of Jeremy Corbyn, it is because I admire his integrity and honesty. You mean like faking photos of him sitting on overcrowded trains, "dealing with" existing student loans or the terrible way he dealt with Thangam Debbonaire. IMO Corbyn's a machine politician who works very hard to maintain his 'authentic' image. The train incident was a bit naughty. But Jeremy was trying to point out a valid problem with overcrowding on trains - the fact that the actual train on which he was travelling was not overcrowded does not change the fact that there are many train services in England which are ridiculously overcrowded. I happen to agree that there was a clear implication that,if a Labour government had been elected in June, not only would future student debt be dealt with but that existing student debt would be eradicated. But,given that the electorate voted for a Conservative government, it is unreasonable to criticise the Labour Party for not implementing their manifesto when we have a Conservative government . I certainly would be outraged if we had elected a Labour government which decided not to implement the policies it outlined (whether explicitly or implicitly) in its election campaign. I am not aware of the incident with Thangam Debbonaire. But neither of those incidents change my view that Jeremy Corbyn is far more honest and integral than the average politician - nobody can be perfect after all.
|
|
albion
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,270
|
Post by albion on Aug 21, 2017 15:29:27 GMT
You do seem very exercised about this - though one might have thought somebody in the MSM might be onto it if things were really that serious? I would regard the Islington Gazette as a good MSM source. Founded in the mid 19th century, Corbyn's local rag and with a reputation for independence which is far better than the nationals controlled by the paymasters of too many politicians. As for why. I recall all too many asking why the Liberals failed to act on Smith, and why the Conservatives failed to deal with Morrison (and others). It seems inappropriate to excuse Corbyn from scrutiny just because he is leader of the Labour Party - especially when one of his own MPs (John Mann) has published an open letter to him demanding answers to precisely these questions. I am afraid that I cannot recall if it was you Bishop who suggested the Mann letter was some sort of nonsense from a disaffected colleague when I previously pointed it out. I assume that if you read the Islington Gazette series of articles you will accept that it is no such thing. And that means Corbyn has very serious questions to answer; much more so than those three listed in the earlier post.
|
|
|
Post by yellowperil on Aug 21, 2017 16:15:34 GMT
I would regard the Islington Gazette as a good MSM source. Founded in the mid 19th century, Corbyn's local rag and with a reputation for independence which is far better than the nationals controlled by the paymasters of too many politicians. As for why. I recall all too many asking why the Liberals failed to act on Smith, and why the Conservatives failed to deal with Morrison (and others). It seems inappropriate to excuse Corbyn from scrutiny just because he is leader of the Labour Party - especially when one of his own MPs (John Mann) has published an open letter to him demanding answers to precisely these questions. I am afraid that I cannot recall if it was you Bishop who suggested the Mann letter was some sort of nonsense from a disaffected colleague when I previously pointed it out. I assume that if you read the Islington Gazette series of articles you will accept that it is no such thing. And that means Corbyn has very serious questions to answer; much more so than those three listed in the earlier post. This should be an important issue so I am wondering why you bring it up on this thread which is for newbies to introduce themselves .I imagine the short answer is that it was a response to Jigger's rather naive view of Corbyn as a man of honour, but if the issue is as important as you say maybe it should be brought into the mainstream, perhaps its own thread.
|
|
The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,790
|
Post by The Bishop on Aug 21, 2017 16:23:39 GMT
When MSM is mentioned in this context one is thinking of more than just the local newspaper. But yeah, this is a discussion best taken elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Aug 21, 2017 16:26:03 GMT
You mean like faking photos of him sitting on overcrowded trains, "dealing with" existing student loans or the terrible way he dealt with Thangam Debbonaire. IMO Corbyn's a machine politician who works very hard to maintain his 'authentic' image. The train incident was a bit naughty. But Jeremy was trying to point out a valid problem with overcrowding on trains - the fact that the actual train on which he was travelling was not overcrowded does not change the fact that there are many train services in England which are ridiculously overcrowded. I happen to agree that there was a clear implication that,if a Labour government had been elected in June, not only would future student debt be dealt with but that existing student debt would be eradicated. But,given that the electorate voted for a Conservative government, it is unreasonable to criticise the Labour Party for not implementing their manifesto when we have a Conservative government . I certainly would be outraged if we had elected a Labour government which decided not to implement the policies it outlined (whether explicitly or implicitly) in its election campaign. I am not aware of the incident with Thangam Debbonaire. But neither of those incidents change my view that Jeremy Corbyn is far more honest and integral than the average politician - nobody can be perfect after all. I think that we might be able to agree that he is indeed integral, but I have never believed that brown bread was more wholesome.
|
|
albion
Non-Aligned
Posts: 1,270
|
Post by albion on Aug 21, 2017 16:56:53 GMT
I would regard the Islington Gazette as a good MSM source. Founded in the mid 19th century, Corbyn's local rag and with a reputation for independence which is far better than the nationals controlled by the paymasters of too many politicians. As for why. I recall all too many asking why the Liberals failed to act on Smith, and why the Conservatives failed to deal with Morrison (and others). It seems inappropriate to excuse Corbyn from scrutiny just because he is leader of the Labour Party - especially when one of his own MPs (John Mann) has published an open letter to him demanding answers to precisely these questions. I am afraid that I cannot recall if it was you Bishop who suggested the Mann letter was some sort of nonsense from a disaffected colleague when I previously pointed it out. I assume that if you read the Islington Gazette series of articles you will accept that it is no such thing. And that means Corbyn has very serious questions to answer; much more so than those three listed in the earlier post. This should be an important issue so I am wondering why you bring it up on this thread which is for newbies to introduce themselves .I imagine the short answer is that it was a response to Jigger's rather naive view of Corbyn as a man of honour, but if the issue is as important as you say maybe it should be brought into the mainstream, perhaps its own thread. It was because I saw the 3 examples of Corbyn duplicity as rather minor so thought that a more serious example of his misbehaviour should be offered.
|
|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Aug 21, 2017 18:03:59 GMT
You mean like faking photos of him sitting on overcrowded trains, "dealing with" existing student loans or the terrible way he dealt with Thangam Debbonaire. IMO Corbyn's a machine politician who works very hard to maintain his 'authentic' image. The train incident was a bit naughty. But Jeremy was trying to point out a valid problem with overcrowding on trains - the fact that the actual train on which he was travelling was not overcrowded does not change the fact that there are many train services in England which are ridiculously overcrowded. As a railway nerd (yes, I am believe it or not - rare on here I know) and an ex-railwayman there were a number of points which annoyed me about his stunt. 1. If you're going to film on an overcrowded train then find one (there are - jigger assures us - "many .. which are ridiculously overcrowded"); 2. Heading for a train to film such a piece on the basis of "well, if it's not full we'll just pretend" is pure cynicism; 3. Doing it on one of the most image-conscious operators (Stagecoach/Virgin) shows a lack of awareness; 4. Constantly switching your explanation shows further cynicism - "couldn't get two seats together/ got offered a seat so let my wife had it/ all the seats were reserved/ the seats which look empty were all occupied by children, short people, bags of people who'd gone to the loo etc etc etc "; 5. Problem identified - what's the solution? Nationalisation ? How does that allow you to run longer or more frequent trains? 6. And then he wants lower fares? How does that work? So ... honesty? Integrity?
|
|