mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 22,460
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Post by mboy on Oct 7, 2018 10:40:34 GMT
IIRC Gavin Webb, a Lib Dem on Stoke City Council defected to them shortly before the 2015 GE at which he was supposed to be PPC in (I think, and this is really an educated guess) Lichfield. He didn’t re-fight his Council seat however so there’s no electoral history to analyse. This is correct (although I think he was PPC for Burton) - he used to style himself as "Lib Dem (libertarian)" on literature. I had some interaction with him over a decade ago and was sad he left. (His support for liberalising gun laws in the UK was too libertarian even for me though!) He ultimately left the party after being suspended on and off for advocating legalisation of prostitution (now basically party policy) drugs (now basically party policy) and guns (not party policy). At the moment the Libertarian Party aren't going anywhere. However, if the Lib Dems accelerate down the "Woke activism" route that they appear to be testing in the last year or two (with increasingly anti free-speech/presumption-of-innocence/etc stances), then people like me could find themselves in the situation where the Libertarian Party are saying more that we agree with then the Lib Dems are. That would put us in the position of deciding whether to stay with a larger party with more ability to influence the nation but that also says less what we actually want to hear... (There is zero chance of me ever going to Con/Lab/Green/UKIP).
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2018 11:22:31 GMT
Each to their own, but I have little issue with the policy route the party has taken in recent years, and I definitely struggle to comprehend how a Lib Dem would come to support a party with Bill Etheridge in it (who, by the way, is firmly sticking to being in the EFDD group).
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mboy
Liberal
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Posts: 22,460
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Post by mboy on Oct 7, 2018 11:58:23 GMT
Each to their own, but I have little issue with the policy route the party has taken in recent years, and I definitely struggle to comprehend how a Lib Dem would come to support a party with Bill Etheridge in it (who, by the way, is firmly sticking to being in the EFDD group). I support parties according to their policies rather than according to who else supports them. If you do the opposite that's up to you.
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Post by tonyhill on Oct 7, 2018 13:21:51 GMT
I have the same problem with the direction the LibDems have been going and pretty much stopped posting on LibDem Voice because I was so fed up with my (politely expressed) views being moderated. I wouldn't be bothered at my age to join another party though.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,722
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Post by J.G.Harston on Oct 7, 2018 15:24:59 GMT
I have the same problem with the direction the LibDems have been going and pretty much stopped posting on LibDem Voice because I was so fed up with my (politely expressed) views being moderated. I wouldn't be bothered at my age to join another party though. I have the option of the Liberal Party where I live, but they've been tracking a bit too socialist for my tastes recently. And it would be a bit unfair for me to leave before I've finished the party accounts.
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Post by BossMan on Oct 7, 2018 15:49:26 GMT
I have the same problem with the direction the LibDems have been going and pretty much stopped posting on LibDem Voice because I was so fed up with my (politely expressed) views being moderated. I wouldn't be bothered at my age to join another party though. I'm in a position where I suspect I'm not going to renew my subs within a year or two. I came very close with Farron in charge, in fact I thought I had cancelled the direct debit, but it turned out I'd cancelled one for regular donation which I'd forgotten about.
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Post by LDCaerdydd on Oct 7, 2018 16:02:08 GMT
My membership is up in the first week of April i.e. a few days after ‘Brexit Day’ at the moment it’ll lapse, won’t defect, just won’t renew. I hope I change the leadership(s) help me change my mind.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,722
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Post by J.G.Harston on Oct 7, 2018 17:33:22 GMT
Blimey you're a discontented lot. What are you discontented about? Abandonment of presumption of innocence, due process, pramatism, respect for different opinions, free speech, localism, democracy, liberalism, ....
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,565
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Post by Khunanup on Oct 7, 2018 17:41:26 GMT
Blimey you're a discontented lot. What are you discontented about? I think it's pretty safe to say that the party brethren on here aren't exactly typical of the party as a whole... & I may be understating things just a tad. 🤐
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 7, 2018 18:07:50 GMT
Blimey you're a discontented lot. What are you discontented about? They now have to salute when passing the official portraits of Gina Miller.
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Post by curiousliberal on Oct 7, 2018 18:18:59 GMT
Blimey you're a discontented lot. What are you discontented about? Abandonment of presumption of innocence, When did we do this? Don't conflate American liberal Democrats with British Liberal Democrats (the US scene is a clusterfuck and its foreign influence should be limited). ? A much-needed reflex of the massive backlash to the coalition (we did cast aside too many of our principles at time). Pragmatism is something any part will find more of if in, or in reach of, government - although I would much prefer us to show a little more of it now and outside government too, tbh. Generally our rank-and-file members have a decent amount of power relative to those in other parties. MPs openly disagree with each other on flashpoint issues such as Brexit without being condemned or expelled, and discourse seems fairly open on most issues. Ok. Now we're getting somewhere! The LDs could - and should - be better on free speech, but we're probably the best of the bunch. What? I don't think we're failing on these. Granted, they're not being given enough focus because of Brexit talking points, but our policies - though not promoted as often as they should be - seem to advance these causes, or at least be well-intentioned in the pursuit of doing so. My main problems with the LDs are the occasional lack of proper local organisation (as functional political units, we're devastated in certain parts of the country and haven't made sufficient recoveries since the coalition), and the fixation on Brexit (a worthy topic of discussion, but one that gets a bit too much airtime IMO). I'm also not a fan of the 2nd referendum with a remain option, although I think allowing people to decide what kind of Brexit they want is a laudable proposition. I think some of you here are confusing the online activism of pro-EU people with the beliefs of rank-and-file LD members. I'm a relatively newish LD member (although I supported the party for a longer time), and have talked to other newish LD members: most of them are not like the Twitterati (who are merely a kinder, moderate reflection of the obnoxious Twitter "discourse" crowd). Even the ones you'd probably call "woke" are of a decidedly liberal bent and usually open to listening to views that go against their own on touchstone issues, which is beyond the capacity of your average Corbynite. The widespread perception culture war and recent political turmoil are causing the party to act out a little bit, but really that's why we need to rally behind it more than ever and remind it what it stands for. Odd little organisations like the Libertarian Party aren't going to get anywhere, and there certainly isn't fertile ground for a new liberal party to just spring up out of nowhere: IMO, this is the best chance we've got at building a liberal Britain. If you're not completely disillusioned with politics, I'd recommend you stay.
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Post by tonyhill on Oct 7, 2018 18:21:09 GMT
Well, I hope we are not typical or there won't be anyone left in the party soon! People always say, "I haven't left the party, the party has left me". In my case I don't think that is exactly true (though I haven't actually left anyway), but having been an activist for nearly 50 years I suppose I feel that it is time for the new blood to take things in the direction they see as relevant to the current age. The party of my youth was radical and exciting (I just missed the Red Guard period), but Community Politics inspired me, and many others, to go back to our constituencies and make liberalism relevant again. Over a period of about 30 years I gradually became disillusioned with community politics partly because of how formulaic it became, but also because of the ways that it changed how all the parties do politics and in ways that I do not necessarily think are beneficial (I don't want to try members' patience by elaborating on that here). Then there is also the point that many of the things that I campaigned for in my youth are now mainstream and identity politics, which I abhor, is increasingly taking root in the Liberal Democrats as well as Labour. Finally, (well apart from not supporting a second referendum) on the Saturday following the 2010 General Election the Party asked for members' views on a possible coalition with the Tories. My response to the Federal Executive outlined what would happen if we went into coalition, and everything I said came true, and my concluding point was that it was the activists of my generation who had built the party into a force to be reckoned with, but that when it was destroyed by coalition we no longer had the energy of our youth to rebuild it. So I am sad, and I wish the Party well, but there isn't anything about it that really inspires me at the moment.
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mboy
Liberal
Listen. Think. Speak.
Posts: 22,460
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Post by mboy on Oct 7, 2018 18:35:32 GMT
Blimey you're a discontented lot. What are you discontented about? I think it's pretty safe to say that the party brethren on here aren't exactly typical of the party as a whole.. That's true of all the party posters here, of course. The average Tory member isn't a gay libertarian, the average Labour doesn't think Corbyn is a liability, the average Green isn't a Christian, etc. The membership of all the parties has changed dramatically in the last 3 years, with accompanying effects that hasn't always pleased the old-timers. Many of us grumpy yellow sods remember not so long ago when our policy platform wasn't outsourced to a combination of Twitter and Brussels, and when our party president used to carry a copy of JS Mills 'On Liberty' to flash at every event...
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Post by timrollpickering on Oct 7, 2018 19:51:58 GMT
I had similar as a Conservative - I went through a period of being told my moderate, One Nation, Cameroon-before-anyone-knew-who-Cameron-was opinions were "unConservative" but over time I've found myself more and more in the mainstream (regardless of which strand of opinion uses that term this week).
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Post by East Anglian Lefty on Oct 7, 2018 20:31:39 GMT
Over a period of about 30 years I gradually became disillusioned with community politics partly because of how formulaic it became, but also because of the ways that it changed how all the parties do politics and in ways that I do not necessarily think are beneficial (I don't want to try members' patience by elaborating on that here). This is the bit of your post I found most interesting by a clear margin, so please do elaborate.
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Post by timrollpickering on Oct 7, 2018 21:01:52 GMT
The Libertarian Party's Midlands regional co-ordinator has confirmed Day has joined them as well. So too has Etheridge. It's my impression, and perhaps one for a new thread, that in a number of areas Ukip has suffered a number of en bloc defections by local activists to the same party, sometimes taking the branch infrastructure with them. Really, is this a serious party? Where was the conference, how many attended? Just noticed in checking something else that the Libertarians contested the Lewisham East by-election. They were outpolled by the Official Monster Raving Loony Party.
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Post by tonyhill on Oct 8, 2018 19:51:08 GMT
I'm a bit worried that this thread is being derailed by unhappy LibDems like myself, I am neither a councillor, nor notable, nor am I about to defect, but as a number of people seemed to want me to expand on what I said above I will do my best.
The essence of community politics, as espoused by the activist left in the Liberal Party from 1970 onwards, was a dual approach: challenging entrenched institutions, principally councils, by getting Liberal activists elected to shake them up, but also helping people to take and use power in their communities. The first strand was massively successful and led to Liberals/LibDems taking control of major local authorities all over the country. But the ideologues (and I'm not using that term disparagingly) were always few in number, and the essential techniques - Focus production, surveys, petitions about local grievances -are easy to replicate without an understanding of the deeper philosophy, and the very success of the techniques meant that there wasn't much incentive to develop the philosophy anyway. However, the techniques were actually easily replicable by other parties, notably the Conservatives with their In Touch newsletters, but even the BNP and UKIP employ the same strategies. In truth, there is nothing inherently liberal about helping people to take and use power in their communities. It can be done in a liberal way - Liberal controlled councils pioneered the devolution of power to neighbourhood level - but there is nothing necessarily liberal about the way people in communities exercise power.
It is not only Liberals who developed ways of challenging power of course, but the Party probably played a significant role in disseminating the techniques of institutional protest. Generally speaking I suspect that the focus of most councillors is now on their own wards rather than on the wider community that they serve (my apologies to councillors who read this who are exceptions), and this has led to the growth of well-heeled middle class NIMBYism. But this myopic attention to local politics has led to a devaluation of activity that does not involve pushing pieces of paper through doors. In the sixties there were a number of Liberal periodicals in which ideas were developed and debated: now, as far as I know, there is only Liberator (and the Journal of Liberal History!). While Liberals have been getting potholes fixed, and doing worthy things like promoting sustainability, the invisible forces of capitalism have been irrevocably altering our communities unchallenged. Politicians, in my experience, no longer read books, nor do many of them write books, except memoirs. Liberals created and developed a political model that was much more responsive to the electorate, but perhaps a consequence is that activism is now favoured over debate and analysis.
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Post by Adam in Stroud on Oct 8, 2018 20:11:26 GMT
I'm a bit worried that this thread is being derailed by unhappy LibDems like myself, I am neither a councillor, nor notable, nor am I about to defect, but as a number of people seemed to want me to expand on what I said above I will do my best. The essence of community politics, as espoused by the activist left in the Liberal Party from 1970 onwards, was a dual approach: challenging entrenched institutions, principally councils, by getting Liberal activists elected to shake them up, but also helping people to take and use power in their communities. The first strand was massively successful and led to Liberals/LibDems taking control of major local authorities all over the country. But the ideologues (and I'm not using that term disparagingly) were always few in number, and the essential techniques - Focus production, surveys, petitions about local grievances -are easy to replicate without an understanding of the deeper philosophy, and the very success of the techniques meant that there wasn't much incentive to develop the philosophy anyway. However, the techniques were actually easily replicable by other parties, notably the Conservatives with their In Touch newsletters, but even the BNP and UKIP employ the same strategies. In truth, there is nothing inherently liberal about helping people to take and use power in their communities. It can be done in a liberal way - Liberal controlled councils pioneered the devolution of power to neighbourhood level - but there is nothing necessarily liberal about the way people in communities exercise power. It is not only Liberals who developed ways of challenging power of course, but the Party probably played a significant role in disseminating the techniques of institutional protest. Generally speaking I suspect that the focus of most councillors is now on their own wards rather than on the wider community that they serve (my apologies to councillors who read this who are exceptions), and this has led to the growth of well-heeled middle class NIMBYism. But this myopic attention to local politics has led to a devaluation of activity that does not involve pushing pieces of paper through doors. In the sixties there were a number of Liberal periodicals in which ideas were developed and debated: now, as far as I know, there is only Liberator (and the Journal of Liberal History!). While Liberals have been getting potholes fixed, and doing worthy things like promoting sustainability, the invisible forces of capitalism have been irrevocably altering our communities unchallenged. Politicians, in my experience, no longer read books, nor do many of them write books, except memoirs. Liberals created and developed a political model that was much more responsive to the electorate, but perhaps a consequence is that activism is now favoured over debate and analysis. One for the Lib Dem board really, except that you're not in it! Some good points here that chime with some of the criticisms Merseymike has made of the LDs and which are at least partly well-founded. I support community politics and plagiarism by other parties is the sincerest form of flattery, but it should not be a substitute for the battle of ideas (and nor are individual policies.)
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neilm
Non-Aligned
Posts: 25,023
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Post by neilm on Oct 8, 2018 21:20:45 GMT
I'm a bit worried that this thread is being derailed by unhappy LibDems like myself, I am neither a councillor, nor notable, nor am I about to defect, but as a number of people seemed to want me to expand on what I said above I will do my best. The essence of community politics, as espoused by the activist left in the Liberal Party from 1970 onwards, was a dual approach: challenging entrenched institutions, principally councils, by getting Liberal activists elected to shake them up, but also helping people to take and use power in their communities. The first strand was massively successful and led to Liberals/LibDems taking control of major local authorities all over the country. But the ideologues (and I'm not using that term disparagingly) were always few in number, and the essential techniques - Focus production, surveys, petitions about local grievances -are easy to replicate without an understanding of the deeper philosophy, and the very success of the techniques meant that there wasn't much incentive to develop the philosophy anyway. However, the techniques were actually easily replicable by other parties, notably the Conservatives with their In Touch newsletters, but even the BNP and UKIP employ the same strategies. In truth, there is nothing inherently liberal about helping people to take and use power in their communities. It can be done in a liberal way - Liberal controlled councils pioneered the devolution of power to neighbourhood level - but there is nothing necessarily liberal about the way people in communities exercise power. It is not only Liberals who developed ways of challenging power of course, but the Party probably played a significant role in disseminating the techniques of institutional protest. Generally speaking I suspect that the focus of most councillors is now on their own wards rather than on the wider community that they serve (my apologies to councillors who read this who are exceptions), and this has led to the growth of well-heeled middle class NIMBYism. But this myopic attention to local politics has led to a devaluation of activity that does not involve pushing pieces of paper through doors. In the sixties there were a number of Liberal periodicals in which ideas were developed and debated: now, as far as I know, there is only Liberator (and the Journal of Liberal History!). While Liberals have been getting potholes fixed, and doing worthy things like promoting sustainability, the invisible forces of capitalism have been irrevocably altering our communities unchallenged. Politicians, in my experience, no longer read books, nor do many of them write books, except memoirs. Liberals created and developed a political model that was much more responsive to the electorate, but perhaps a consequence is that activism is now favoured over debate and analysis. ^^This I have written before on here of the collapse of intellectualism in the Labour Party and how it has left discourse in the UK that much poorer. It is interesting that people on the Liberal (as opposed to liberal, which is what I am) side may feel albeit in a broader sense.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Oct 8, 2018 21:27:39 GMT
tonyhill, one of the most interesting posts on here of recent times.
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