mboy
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Post by mboy on Aug 19, 2020 12:22:23 GMT
It works reasonably well in Wales and Scotland precisely because there is a strong identity. People do not identify with the "south west" or the "north east". In which case there's no need to devolve health, education, and other issues that a regional identity might want. But the need for regional coherence on transport and infrastructure is clear. This worked fairly well back in the 2000s when the provisional regional assemblies were bodies with councillors appointed by regional proportion, but despite being given planning and infrastructure remit they were crippled by Blair and all the power was in the Regional Development Agencies, which were just Blairite quangos.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Aug 19, 2020 12:22:33 GMT
And whilst that may have been enough for you Sandy, it wasn't for a huge number of others.
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Aug 19, 2020 12:23:18 GMT
A regional tier of government is vital in the modern age for transport infrastructure and planning coherence. What other things make sense to do at a regional level is up for debate, but giving those regions with strong identity the ability to go their own way on health/education is fine if they want it. The Welsh system of a single layer of councils with a regional lay above is - like Scotland - entirely sensible and the way England should go as well. That's why we had administrative devolution through the Scottish and Welsh offices. Undemocratic civil servants with no fricking clue and no accountability.
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peterl
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Post by peterl on Aug 19, 2020 12:25:17 GMT
It works reasonably well in Wales and Scotland precisely because there is a strong identity. People do not identify with the "south west" or the "north east". In which case there's no need to devolve health, education, and other issues that a regional identity might want. But the need for regional coherence on transport and infrastructure is clear. This worked fairly well back in the 2000s when the provisional regional assemblies were bodies with councillors appointed by regional proportion, but despite being given planning and infrastructure remit they were crippled by Blair and all the power was in the Regional Development Agencies, which were just Blairite quangos. A lot of people don't think this system worked very well at all. Now there may have been reasons for that, one might have been the fairly limited scope of their activity. But it always just seemed to be a tool for shifting house building targets from Westminster to (in my case) Bristol/Exeter. Shifting the blame to councillors, but the same things happen regardless. If you genuinly want regional government, it needs to have a workable area big enough to actually take on real responsibilities and that people can identify with.
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Post by curiousliberal on Aug 19, 2020 12:25:46 GMT
It works reasonably well in Wales and Scotland precisely because there is a strong identity. People do not identify with the "south west" or the "north east". Maybe not the whole southwest, but there is a Cornish identity and a London one for that matter. Both need more devolution (I haven't read too far into this, but it seems as if London does not even have the power to implement an LVT).
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mboy
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Post by mboy on Aug 19, 2020 12:31:13 GMT
In which case there's no need to devolve health, education, and other issues that a regional identity might want. But the need for regional coherence on transport and infrastructure is clear. This worked fairly well back in the 2000s when the provisional regional assemblies were bodies with councillors appointed by regional proportion, but despite being given planning and infrastructure remit they were crippled by Blair and all the power was in the Regional Development Agencies, which were just Blairite quangos. A lot of people don't think this system worked very well at all. Now there may have been reasons for that, one might have been the fairly limited scope of their activity. But it always just seemed to be a tool for shifting house building targets from Westminster to (in my case) Bristol/Exeter. Shifting the blame to councillors, but the same things happen regardless. If you genuinly want regional government, it needs to have a workable area big enough to actually take on real responsibilities and that people can identify with. Shifting "blame" (i.e. accountability) for housing targets from London to the people who actually sit on the committees that say 'yes' or 'no' is a very good idea! Councillors didn't like it because it forced them to deal with their own NIMBY two-faced bullshit of demanding more housing and then turning it down. As I say, the RDA power & money should have been with the regional assemblies. If we actually had a proportional parliamentary system I'd also support simply making all the MPs in a region the members of the regional body, but that is impossible under FPTP as many regions would be mono-cultures on 45% of the vote.
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Post by No Offence Alan on Aug 19, 2020 12:31:51 GMT
A regional tier of government is vital in the modern age for transport infrastructure and planning coherence. What other things make sense to do at a regional level is up for debate, but giving those regions with strong identity the ability to go their own way on health/education is fine if they want it. The Welsh system of a single layer of councils with a regional lay above is - like Scotland - entirely sensible and the way England should go as well. As long as the regions are sensibly sized and coherent-the current South East region is neither, for example. I would start with 3 big regions, like Belgium. Greater Greater London; The North; and The Rest (Anglia?). If any bits feel strongly enough to split away later, they can.
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Aug 19, 2020 12:34:04 GMT
It works reasonably well in Wales and Scotland precisely because there is a strong identity. People do not identify with the "south west" or the "north east". Maybe not the whole southwest, but there is a Cornish identity and a London one for that matter. Both need more devolution (I haven't read too far into this, but it seems as if London does not even have the power to implement an LVT). Does anywhere in the UK, apart from Westminster?
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cibwr
Plaid Cymru
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Post by cibwr on Aug 19, 2020 12:38:55 GMT
That's why we had administrative devolution through the Scottish and Welsh offices. Undemocratic civil servants with no fricking clue and no accountability. Two words, John Redwood.
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neilm
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Post by neilm on Aug 19, 2020 12:41:15 GMT
I would suggest the Landtags that Pete Whitehead has notional results for as the basis for English devolution. However, to work, any devolution to England or its regions needs to be on absolutely the same terms as Scotland. Otherwise we're just storing up problems especially if the current substantial subsidy to Scotland continues.
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Aug 19, 2020 12:41:52 GMT
That's why we had administrative devolution through the Scottish and Welsh offices. Undemocratic civil servants with no fricking clue and no accountability. Worse on top: quangos headed up by politically well connected cronies (often former politicians themselves). Biggest single factor in the huge movement towards the pro-political devolution position in Wales.
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Post by jacoblamsden on Aug 19, 2020 12:55:53 GMT
It works reasonably well in Wales and Scotland precisely because there is a strong identity. People do not identify with the "south west" or the "north east". Maybe not the whole southwest, but there is a Cornish identity and a London one for that matter. Both need more devolution (I haven't read too far into this, but it seems as if London does not even have the power to implement an LVT). There's certainly not a strong London identity throughout the whole of Greater London. Having lived in deepest Bromley for years the overwhelming sense was of an area that wished the Local Government Acts of the 60s had never existed and wanted still to be part of Kent. I've also got family in Upminster and again there is more connection with Essex than London. There are so many people living in outer London who have moved from the inner area over the years precisely because they want to live somewhere that is not typically like London.
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Post by No Offence Alan on Aug 19, 2020 12:58:06 GMT
I would suggest the Landtags that Pete Whitehead has notional results for as the basis for English devolution. However, to work, any devolution to England or its regions needs to be on absolutely the same terms as Scotland. Otherwise we're just storing up problems especially if the current substantial subsidy to Scotland continues. Every single part of the UK is subsidised, by our grandchildren.
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peterl
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Post by peterl on Aug 19, 2020 12:59:03 GMT
Wessex (South West and East) Mercia (East and West Midlands) East Anglia (East of England, and then extend up to the edge of Yorkshire) Northumbria (North East, North West, Yorkshire)
London stays seperate.
People could identify with those areas and they are large enough to give real powers to.
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Aug 19, 2020 13:16:42 GMT
Undemocratic civil servants with no fricking clue and no accountability. Two words, John Redwood. Do Plaid just spend all day obsessing with Redwood? That's what it seems like to an outsider
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Aug 19, 2020 13:22:07 GMT
That's why we had administrative devolution through the Scottish and Welsh offices. Undemocratic civil servants with no fricking clue and no accountability. Sounds a bit like the EU🤔.
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cibwr
Plaid Cymru
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Post by cibwr on Aug 19, 2020 13:31:26 GMT
Do Plaid just spend all day obsessing with Redwood? That's what it seems like to an outsider Because he made the case so eloquently for devolution, from removing Welsh branding from Welsh Office stationary, through refusing to stay overnight in the country, to sending money back to the treasury to being the voice of the cabinet in Wales and not the voice of Wales in the cabinet. His rule exposed the naked colonialism and the limits of administrative devolution as experienced in Wales. You could make a case that George Thomas was almost as bad as Redwood, but Redwood is ahead by a country mile.
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Sandy
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Post by Sandy on Aug 19, 2020 13:34:28 GMT
Do Plaid just spend all day obsessing with Redwood? That's what it seems like to an outsider Because he made the case so eloquently for devolution, from removing Welsh branding from Welsh Office stationary, through refusing to stay overnight in the country, to sending money back to the treasury to being the voice of the cabinet in Wales and not the voice of Wales in the cabinet. His rule exposed the naked colonialism and the limits of administrative devolution as experienced in Wales. You could make a case that George Thomas was almost as bad as Redwood, but Redwood is ahead by a country mile. Naked colonialism hahahahaha Still waiting for it to propel Welsh Nationalism and Plaid to a massive electoral breakthrough though?
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Chris from Brum
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Post by Chris from Brum on Aug 19, 2020 13:35:21 GMT
Do Plaid just spend all day obsessing with Redwood? That's what it seems like to an outsider Because he made the case so eloquently for devolution, from removing Welsh branding from Welsh Office stationary, through refusing to stay overnight in the country, to sending money back to the treasury to being the voice of the cabinet in Wales and not the voice of Wales in the cabinet. His rule exposed the naked colonialism and the limits of administrative devolution as experienced in Wales. You could make a case that George Thomas was almost as bad as Redwood, but Redwood is ahead by a country mile.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Aug 19, 2020 13:36:03 GMT
Do Plaid just spend all day obsessing with Redwood? That's what it seems like to an outsider Because he made the case so eloquently for devolution, from removing Welsh branding from Welsh Office stationary, through refusing to stay overnight in the country, to sending money back to the treasury to being the voice of the cabinet in Wales and not the voice of Wales in the cabinet. His rule exposed the naked colonialism and the limits of administrative devolution as experienced in Wales. You could make a case that George Thomas was almost as bad as Redwood, but Redwood is ahead by a country mile. It's a strange form of colonialism when you elect representatives to the parliament of a union that you could leave at any time.
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