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Post by curiousliberal on Nov 9, 2016 7:53:50 GMT
The idea that liberals feeling unhappy cancels out generally disastrous policy consequences is possibly the most vapid one in the entire conservative mindset. Firstly I don't think it cancels it out and secondly I am largely talking about vacuous celebrities being outraged. Their vacuousness does not detract from their outrage. I know plenty of virtue signallers get outraged over things in an unjustifiable way, but this is totally different due to the sheer magnitude of the issue. People have every right to be outraged by this result, and should be. It's a global disaster, and a blow to liberal democracy worldwide. |
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Post by Andrew_S on Nov 9, 2016 7:59:34 GMT
Well Dok had his meltdown four years too early didn't he.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 8:25:11 GMT
Firstly I don't think it cancels it out and secondly I am largely talking about vacuous celebrities being outraged. Their vacuousness does not detract from their outrage. I know plenty of virtue signallers get outraged over things in an unjustifiable way, but this is totally different due to the sheer magnitude of the issue. People have every right to be outraged by this result, and should be. It's a global disaster, and a blow to liberal democracy worldwide. how is this a blow to liberal democracy, turnout up and people making their voice heard. It's like brexit, people on the left decide democracy is a bad idea when the people vote in a way they don't like. Instead of talking down to people about their concerns on immigration, social mobility and all the isms, how about you look to address their concerns. |
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Nov 9, 2016 11:54:54 GMT
It is a "blow to liberal democracy" because somebody has been elected as POTUS who is totally and utterly unfit to do the job in every significant way.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 12:26:09 GMT
It is a "blow to liberal democracy" because somebody has been elected as POTUS who is totally and utterly unfit to do the job in every significant way. its a blow to you not liberal democracy. Hollande is totally and utterly unfit for the job but no one said it was a disaster for liberal democracy. If he is crap they will vote him out in 4 years. He is great for democracy as he proves you don't have to be a right on, robotic politician with everything controlled and timed. It seems in the USA and here the left are waiting for demographics to change rather then addressing people's concern to regain power. |
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Nov 9, 2016 12:27:36 GMT
If the result of Hollande's inadequacy is President Le Pen next year, then that argument could certainly be made at least.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 12:32:49 GMT
Blue collar/non-college whites voted like a minority bloc against Hillary yesterday - a minority block that is around 40% of the population.
Turned out @pjones under all his stupid conspiracy babble did have a point about (parts of) whites voting along racial lines - so a partial apology (but you do make it hard for yourselves by sounding so damn obtuse even when you got a point). You had rural/small town whites in the Rust Belt voting like Southerners. Though this doesn't seem to be a realistic development long time as it won't work with millennials, who broadly seem to be okay with the death of "traditional America".
At the end of the day I simply thought the electorate wasn't white enough for something like the Trump campaign to have a chance anymore. That he was 16 years too late, so to speak. And that white women would be more repulsed by his rampant sexism and misogyny.
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The Bishop
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Post by The Bishop on Nov 9, 2016 12:34:32 GMT
He probably still wouldn't have won without Comey. IMO it gave a smallish but significant group of voters the excuse they were looking for not to support HER.
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Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Nov 9, 2016 12:57:06 GMT
Blue collar/non-college whites voted like a minority bloc against Hillary yesterday - a minority block that is around 40% of the population. Turned out @pjones under all his stupid conspiracy babble did have a point about (parts of) whites voting along racial lines - so a partial apology (but you do make it hard for yourselves by sounding so damn obtuse even when you got a point). You had rural/small town whites in the Rust Belt voting like Southerners. Though this doesn't seem to be a realistic development long time as it won't work with millennials, who broadly seem to be okay with the death of "traditional America". At the end of the day I simply thought the electorate wasn't white enough for something like the Trump campaign to have a chance anymore. That he was 16 years too late, so to speak. And that white women would be more repulsed by his rampant sexism and misogyny. As I said in the other thread we will need to wait for final vote tallies, detailed exit polls, etc but it looks a lot more complicated than just non-college whites turning out in large numbers. Taking Wisconsin as the obvious example, unless there are a shed load of absentee ballots it looks like Clinton under performed Obama in Milwaukee County by nearly 40,000 votes, considerably greater than Trump's victory margin of around 27,000. Also Trump held up pretty well in the affluent Milwaukee suburbs only slightly under performing Romney. It looks clear that some of Obama base simply didn't turn out for Clinton while Trump did better than expected with affluent and suburban Republicans. This combined with his appeal to less well off whites was the formula for his victory. |
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Sibboleth
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Post by Sibboleth on Nov 9, 2016 14:36:39 GMT
It isn't impossible, but then neither is a shockingly large win for Clinton. It's one of those funny elections in which the range of possible outcomes is very wide. Rationally speaking we have to assume it will be roughly in the middle of possibilities, but that doesn't mean it will be. 'But Brexit' is, however, a very bad reason to wonder about this. I'm 'happy' to stand by this. |
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Nov 9, 2016 15:10:50 GMT
In a masterpiece of parochialism, the Manchester Evening News today features Cllr Pat Karney explaining how he does not imagine a Trump win will have any direct effect on Greater Manchester.
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Post by finsobruce on Nov 9, 2016 16:46:44 GMT
In a masterpiece of parochialism, the Manchester Evening News today features Cllr Pat Karney explaining how he does not imagine a Trump win will have any direct effect on Greater Manchester. he might seize the assets of Americans abroad and nationalise Man Utd? |
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hedgehog
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Post by hedgehog on Nov 9, 2016 18:53:57 GMT
I doubt Brooks and Dunn would have imagined this when they wrote Only in America,
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Post by Andrew_S on Nov 9, 2016 18:58:05 GMT
A bit sinister:
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Post by hedgehog on Nov 9, 2016 19:35:02 GMT
Brings back happy memories of 2001 when I spent the Summer in Idaho, played constantly on the local radio station. |
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Post by johnloony on Nov 9, 2016 21:15:54 GMT
Is it my dyslexia or is that a possible incite to violence (assination) of Trump? Three portraits? Why would it be an incitement to anything? |
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Post by curiousliberal on Nov 9, 2016 21:19:34 GMT
Is it my dyslexia or is that a possible incite to violence (assination) of Trump? The tweet was posted at 5am, when Trump's victory was still not entirely ensured. The only sinister thing here is the truth of it. |
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Post by Andrew_S on Nov 9, 2016 21:21:28 GMT
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Post by curiousliberal on Nov 9, 2016 21:47:30 GMT
Their vacuousness does not detract from their outrage. I know plenty of virtue signallers get outraged over things in an unjustifiable way, but this is totally different due to the sheer magnitude of the issue. People have every right to be outraged by this result, and should be. It's a global disaster, and a blow to liberal democracy worldwide. how is this a blow to liberal democracy, turnout up and people making their voice heard. It's like brexit, people on the left decide democracy is a bad idea when the people vote in a way they don't like. Instead of talking down to people about their concerns on immigration, social mobility and all the isms, how about you look to address their concerns. This is not analagous to Brexit. Some of the factors leading to this victory were shared by Brexit and Trump, but there was a substantial proportion of the Brexit movement that wasn't fired up by rabid nationalism (and most of the Leave vote wasn't racial). As for the Democrats looking to address their concerns, they've been trying to do so for years, but the Republicans in Congress do their best to block every move, and many people simply aren't listening any more. It's a problem to which Trump is not the solution. This is a blow to liberal democracy for so many reasons. I'll list a few here but this is by no means exhaustive: 1. Racist identity politics has now captured the conservative movement, the White House and Congress. This ideology, and its victory today, defines America as more of an ethnic democracy, where people vote along racial lines (rather than along differing economic positions), than a liberal one. The tensions within the racially charged environment could get worse if Trump tries to enact any of his pledges, and he could drive an extremely destructive wedge between white and ethnic minority communities in the USA. 2. Trump is an isolationist, and under his presidency the USA is far less likely to challenge dictatorships and despots across the world. Military intervention is often a bad idea, but his attitude to defence of human rights and democracy - which should at the very least be diplomatic, and probably involve economic sanctions in the case of some countries - is woeful. 3. Trump will also serve as vindication of dictatorships across the world. People like Duterte and Orban, who are desperate to erode the democratic foundations of their countries, will use Trump's victory as an example of why democracy is a terrible idea that should be avoided. By electing this nasty clown, the US has destroyed much of its own soft power and moral credibility abroad, which could take decades to recover. 4. This win here will enthuse the far right across the world in their efforts to install their own regimes, and be used to radicalise Muslims. IS can now claim, more credibly than before, that the West truly does hate Muslims. 5. Trump cast doubt on the democratic foundations of the US political system. He may try to 'fix' the 'rigged system' by exacerbating the gerrymandering problem, and will also (if he gets his way) open up libel laws, as well as bringing in a whole host of authoritarian legislation (some of which will no doubt breach human rights - see his comments on Guantanamo). I didn't approve of Hillary's authoritarianism myself, but Trump's is far, far worse. I could go on. Alternatively, I could talk about the other ways in which he's a walking global disaster - his attitude to the Paris climate deal is particularly appalling, for starters. However, I think the evidence is clear enough for those who don't want to shy away from it. |
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Richard Allen
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Post by Richard Allen on Nov 9, 2016 22:07:00 GMT
As for the Democrats looking to address their concerns, they've been trying to do so for years, but the Republicans in Congress do their best to block every move, and many people simply aren't listening any more. It's a problem to which Trump is not the solution. While I am not going to dispute the fact that many Republicans in congress have been pretty disgraceful the Democrats deserve some of the blame for the gridlock. Harry Reid was an awful Senate Majority Leader who frequently refused to compromise on legislation and then complained that the GOP filibustered it. The more moderate GOP senators frequently offered Reid their support in invoking cloture if he would allow their amendments to be voted on but time and again he refused because he didn't like his caucus having to take controversial votes 1. Racist identity politics has now captured the conservative movement, the White House and Congress. This ideology, and its victory today, defines America as more of an ethnic democracy, where people vote along racial lines (rather than along differing economic positions), than a liberal one. The tensions within the racially charged environment could get worse if Trump tries to enact any of his pledges, and he could drive an extremely destructive wedge between white and ethnic minority communities in the USA. This gets to the core of why I was always fundamentally opposed to Trump. What the left should take solace from is that if he does much of what he said he would the backlash will be intense and it will be the conservative movement that enabled him that will share the blame and suffer badly in the long run. |
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