|
Post by gwynthegriff on Sept 14, 2016 20:02:02 GMT
Perhaps, but given the staggeringly high level of criminality among the travelling community, much of it ignored, I am deeply unsympathetic towards the granting of special privileges. For the most part they are a bloody nuisance and cause trouble wherever they go. It is beyond me why anybody wants to encourage their activities. In a country where all land, is owned as private property, there are going to be conflicts as traditional stopping places are out of bounds. Which country is this where all land is owned as private property?
|
|
|
Post by gwynthegriff on Sept 14, 2016 20:05:42 GMT
I would most certainly say that a travelling lifestyle is NOT something to be championed any more than I would wish to champion someone living in a tent on the Lizard (with consent of land owner) or in a tree house in the Forest of Bowland. I am happy to tolerate the activity which has no effect on me, but why champion it? A travelling lifestyle is 'out-of-time' for 21stC when we have busy roads and little or no common land left. It causes problems with effective health care, education of children, land use, collateral damage and disruption on the roads. Those choosing to do it have opted out of every form of duty or responsibility but expect sites to be provided at great expense and all the benefits of a modern state whilst contributing nothing at all to it. And you suggest championing it! Why? An itinerant lifestyle necessitates far fewer possessions, much less of a consumer culture, although the wonderfully eco-friendly horse drawn wagon has virtually disappeared, travellers caravans arnt built to accumulate huge numbers of possessions. One thing we need in this modern world, is the call of the open road, picking up temporary work as we go along. 'Bye!
|
|
Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,261
|
Post by Sibboleth on Sept 14, 2016 21:01:53 GMT
There are about twice the numbers of Irish Travellers in Ireland than Britain and the ones here have been here for a long time so I'm not sure what you're going on about.
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Sept 14, 2016 21:20:51 GMT
I would most certainly say that a travelling lifestyle is NOT something to be championed any more than I would wish to champion someone living in a tent on the Lizard (with consent of land owner) or in a tree house in the Forest of Bowland. I am happy to tolerate the activity which has no effect on me, but why champion it? A travelling lifestyle is 'out-of-time' for 21stC when we have busy roads and little or no common land left. It causes problems with effective health care, education of children, land use, collateral damage and disruption on the roads. Those choosing to do it have opted out of every form of duty or responsibility but expect sites to be provided at great expense and all the benefits of a modern state whilst contributing nothing at all to it. And you suggest championing it! Why? An itinerant lifestyle necessitates far fewer possessions, much less of a consumer culture, although the wonderfully eco-friendly horse drawn wagon has virtually disappeared, travellers caravans arnt built to accumulate huge numbers of possessions. One thing we need in this modern world, is the call of the open road, picking up temporary work as we go along. No we don't. Fluffy pink nonsense with a large carbon footprint. They drive diesels you know!
|
|
Sibboleth
Labour
'Sit on my finger, sing in my ear, O littleblood.'
Posts: 15,261
|
Post by Sibboleth on Sept 14, 2016 21:30:54 GMT
To be honest I was going on what an Irish politician told me. No matter the subject that's always a bad idea.
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Sept 14, 2016 21:46:45 GMT
[ The traveller community have access to representation. You are conviently forgetting that the travellers are identical to the indigenous Irish community. They are not a distinct ethic group, which the Roma are. Even then I would be distantly uneasy about anyone else trying to seperate family members of mine into a seperate community from the proud brits which we are. Irish traveller culture is distinct from (though very similar to) mainstream Irish culture, in that it is based upon movement and marginalisation. Culture creates ethnicity. So yes, they are separate. I cannot understand the concern with this. If they are bothered they will register and vote. If they are not bothered then why all this fuss? And what on earth do you mean by Gypsy and Traveller communities who don't travel. If they have taken settled residence they are no longer travellers by definition and no longer a separate community just part of the community where they live. Are we going to have lists of former airline staff/commercial travellers/military/merchant marine/diplomatic staff...........all of whom will have had special pressures, experiences, problems and threats during a difficult working life that was in many ways even more peripatetic and over longer distances and with more frequency? This is a daft thread about self-defining people who have a remedy in their hands and choose not to use it. They are not in any way an ethnic or religious group and even if they were I would give them no credence for that alone. No, because commercial travellers do not form a separate, notably insular culture with their own distinct traditions (and if you think that settled communities of Gypsies and Irish Travellers are welcomed into the villages where their settlements are, you're even more clueless than you sound). And they certainly don't face endemic discrimination in the planning system when they've stopped travelling. And no, this is not excused by the criminal activities of other members of their communities. I suspect you know you're talking complete shite here, but it'd be pleasing if you'd do so a little less on this issue. If people wish to travel that is their concern but most have been settled now for a few generations. Though those still travelling need to respect peoples property. Something which the roma usually did, hence why they get shirty when you call Irish travelles gypsies. I would also argue that considering most people are settled and leading ordinary lives suggest integration I'm sorry but my grandmothers extended family is no different to my scottish and English family. You seem to think we all go around in dredging poverty. All well and good, but the link with criminality isn't solely with itinerant travellers. Ask in any Cambridgeshire village with a large Gypsy/Irish Traveller presence and you'll hear the stories, not all of which are simple racism (though there is a depressingly large amount of that also.) Traveller culture exists at the same time as the host culture and hence is constructed to some degree in opposition to it. They are 'we', we are 'them' and this is quite a hard barrier to break down (not impossible, but not fast or easy.) And whilst you wouldn't steal from 'us', stealing from 'them' is quite a bit better - which is also much the same reason the host community almost always thinks the worst of the travellers. More broadly, migrant agricultural workers (which is basically the role Travellers have historically played in Britain - hence why there are so many round the edges of the Fens) are always going to cause trouble to the settled community. As I say, Traveller culture is not overly distinct from mainstream British culture - to a large extent, it simply reflects an older working class culture, which explains the popularity of things like bare-knuckling boxing (in my previous job, I came across a lot of ten year-old Gypsy kids, and they all idol-worshipped Tyson Fury) and the fact that the oldest versions of folk songs were usually recorded by talking to elderly Travellers. It's the lifestyle that makes them different, and where the conflict springs from. You just can't stop yourself can you? Nasty embittered vindictive and wrong about nearly anything you touch. Rude and unpleasant with it. 'even more clueless than you sound' 'you know you are talking complete shite here' This is not my understanding of how we decided to conduct ourselves after recent 'little local difficulty'. We have a mutual stand-off. I shall post exactly what I want to on anything I want to when I want to. And if I never saw another post from you that would gladden my heart.
|
|
maxque
Non-Aligned
Posts: 8,972
|
Post by maxque on Sept 14, 2016 21:49:18 GMT
[Irish traveller culture is distinct from (though very similar to) mainstream Irish culture, in that it is based upon movement and marginalisation. Culture creates ethnicity. So yes, they are separate. No, because commercial travellers do not form a separate, notably insular culture with their own distinct traditions (and if you think that settled communities of Gypsies and Irish Travellers are welcomed into the villages where their settlements are, you're even more clueless than you sound). And they certainly don't face endemic discrimination in the planning system when they've stopped travelling. And no, this is not excused by the criminal activities of other members of their communities. I suspect you know you're talking complete shite here, but it'd be pleasing if you'd do so a little less on this issue. All well and good, but the link with criminality isn't solely with itinerant travellers. Ask in any Cambridgeshire village with a large Gypsy/Irish Traveller presence and you'll hear the stories, not all of which are simple racism (though there is a depressingly large amount of that also.) Traveller culture exists at the same time as the host culture and hence is constructed to some degree in opposition to it. They are 'we', we are 'them' and this is quite a hard barrier to break down (not impossible, but not fast or easy.) And whilst you wouldn't steal from 'us', stealing from 'them' is quite a bit better - which is also much the same reason the host community almost always thinks the worst of the travellers. More broadly, migrant agricultural workers (which is basically the role Travellers have historically played in Britain - hence why there are so many round the edges of the Fens) are always going to cause trouble to the settled community. As I say, Traveller culture is not overly distinct from mainstream British culture - to a large extent, it simply reflects an older working class culture, which explains the popularity of things like bare-knuckling boxing (in my previous job, I came across a lot of ten year-old Gypsy kids, and they all idol-worshipped Tyson Fury) and the fact that the oldest versions of folk songs were usually recorded by talking to elderly Travellers. It's the lifestyle that makes them different, and where the conflict springs from. You just can't stop yourself can you? Nasty embittered vindictive and wrong about nearly anything you touch. Rude and unpleasant with it. 'even more clueless than you sound' 'you know you are talking complete shite here' This is not my understanding of how we decided to conduct ourselves after recent 'little local difficulty'. We have a mutual stand-off. I shall post exactly what I want to on anything I want to when I want to. And if I never saw another post from you that would gladden my heart. So, you need a safe zone where you are not called on when you say nonsense?
|
|
pomofaced
Non-Aligned
Galactic Space Fascist
Posts: 1,013
|
Post by pomofaced on Sept 14, 2016 22:29:57 GMT
Here is the deal.
You can have your libertine existence and you leave us alone and we leave you alone, or you willfully integrate into societies expectations. Natural rights of liberty will be respected, but no deal on getting to opt out of social obligations and then expecting society to make an effort on your behalf.
|
|
|
Post by carlton43 on Sept 14, 2016 22:31:38 GMT
What a fun thread!!! It brings out the predictable rabid dog in carlton43 but I did not anticipate it in Richard Allen . An entire clutch of communities, 50% of which are female and in some of the communities as homebound as the Salafists, are tarred as criminal scum and this is amusingly challenged by CatholicLeft , whose experience comes from the fact that he is a prison officer. Of course, if we are going to have a society where criminal scum get a vote then this whole issue is yet another red herring to add to the shoal in this thread. My own take? I don't care if they vote or not, as long as they are permitted to vote if they wish. One of the principle points of being a traveller is to opt out of society. That said, they dont travel to sign on, they travel to work, which for this right wing bigot puts them on a rung above those who will not travel to work. That said they dont pay tax tax on their income, that said any decent accountant could prove that the family partnership did not earn enough after allowable expenses to be liable for tax. That said, they make a bloody mess, that said so do we all, that said they fly tip, that said if landfill tax did not make it prohibitively expensive to obey the law, demand for pikeys would plummet, that said they squat on private land (and I fully agree with ArmchairCritic type tactics to remove them) that said if anyone wishes to lease land to them to camp on the local community of middle class incomers and bureaucrats comes down on that liberty like a ton of asphalt. Many of the traveller communities are indigenous. Some are not. Call me a right wing bigot but I believe we have a moral obligation to our own Gypos and no obligation to foreigners. If you local authority does not have an authorised site and does not permit landowners to lease land then I have limited sympathy when your cricket pitch gets camped on. Oswald Mosley suggested constituencies based not on geography but on employment. You make those observations and state that I am the rabid dog? You will be saying next that 'you see the jowls foaming with much spittle' and then get chucked out of the Conservatives for your 'Rivers of Spittle' remarks. I am just a caustic critic whilst you are an inveterate stirrer.
|
|
|
Post by Devil Wincarnate on Sept 14, 2016 23:31:14 GMT
To be honest I was going on what an Irish politician told me. No matter the subject that's always a bad idea. Some would phrase that as "it's your funeral" but that might attract even worse Irish politicians.
|
|
Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
|
Post by Richard Allen on Sept 14, 2016 23:48:16 GMT
What a fun thread!!! It brings out the predictable rabid dog in carlton43 but I did not anticipate it in Richard Allen. You may have underestimated the importance which I attach to property rights.
|
|
Foggy
Non-Aligned
Long may it rain
Posts: 5,506
|
Post by Foggy on Sept 14, 2016 23:50:32 GMT
No matter the subject that's always a bad idea. Some would phrase that as "it's your funeral" but that might attract even worse Irish politicians. I believe the correct term in Ireland would be "it's your removal".
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2016 13:05:54 GMT
I think there is a strong argument to say that at present the traveller communities, Romany, Irish and new age are ill served by the democratic process, do we even know what proportion are registered to vote ?, the boundary commision seems to be ignoring this whole community, I don't know if traveller seats would work or not, but based on numbers of travellers, we should have at least 10-15 MP's from those communities, we have none and I can't recall there ever being an MP from the traveller tradition. As a country we are quite happy to ignore these people, Labour and the Greens are very good at talking about positive discrimination for disadvantaged groups, but we hear very little about giving travellers a voice. The people you are talking about are largely Irish tinkers [...] Why do you think that these people aren't in Ireland? It is because the Irish don't put up with them. They have introduced laws to curb them. It is true that there is widespread hostility to "travellers" In Ireland, and this is not new. When law and order broke down during the rebellion and civil war, quite large numbers of "tinkers" were murdered, often by the IRA on the pretext of being "spies" or "suspect persons" - It is difficult to calculate exactly how many civilians were killed between 1919 and 1923 [...] Vagrants or 'tinkers' were also frequent victims, although few people missed them and many communities were glad to be rid of them."The Anglo-Irish War: The Troubles of 1913–1922" Peter Cottrell, Bloomsbury, 2014.
|
|