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Post by stb12 on Jul 7, 2022 19:14:14 GMT
There must have been entryism some extent, the membership five years earlier pretty much voted for David Miliband. Or did that many members really shift leftwards?
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Post by mattbewilson on Jul 7, 2022 19:46:56 GMT
There must have been entryism some extent, the membership five years earlier pretty much voted for David Miliband. Or did that many members really shift leftwards? there was a leftward shift but it's a mistake to think that Corbyns rise was just ideological. Corbyn won 38% amongst members who joined prior to 2010
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Post by tonyhill on Jul 7, 2022 20:16:12 GMT
Ed Milliband wasted five years in which he could have redefined what the Labour Party was for but instead whinged on about how the Coalition was the most right wing government in British political history, which it clearly wasn't. The contenders for the Labour leadership after he stood down, with the exception of Corbyn, had no clearly defined policy positions, no strategy to take the Party forward, and no innovative ideas. Much the same as Keir Starmer in fact.
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Post by casualobserver on Jul 7, 2022 20:28:57 GMT
If I’m not mistaken, the national rules of the Party only permit members to vote in any selection at any level if they have three months membership at the time of the selection. I was trying to find out this info but had been unable. I wasn't particularly tempted in any event, but I was sure there was some cut off point of that kind (I thought six months) and its right that there should be From those Constituency Associations I know, new Conservative Party memberships today were four times higher than the normal monthly level!
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Post by batman on Jul 7, 2022 20:43:29 GMT
There must have been entryism some extent, the membership five years earlier pretty much voted for David Miliband. Or did that many members really shift leftwards? there was a leftward shift but it's a mistake to think that Corbyns rise was just ideological. Corbyn won 38% amongst members who joined prior to 2010 that's true. My entire family voted for Corbyn as leader, except for my wife who is quite smug about the fact that she was the only one not to.
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Post by Disgusted Of Tunbridge Wells on Jul 7, 2022 20:50:54 GMT
There must have been entryism some extent, the membership five years earlier pretty much voted for David Miliband. Or did that many members really shift leftwards? "Pretty much" I mean they voted for his much more left wing brother, who shifted the party leftward slightly from the Blair years. Andy Burnham I'd argue was his ideological successor in some aspects, but, as other forum members have said, there was a desire among many on the left for a different style of politics - none of the other candidates really fitted that image. Remember also in 2015, a lot of the ex Remainer Tories who seem to love KS now were still Tory pre Brexit or leant towards the Cons/LDs at the very least.
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maxque
Non-Aligned
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Post by maxque on Jul 7, 2022 22:43:25 GMT
He was a bit of a "none of the above" too, I feel. Protest votes.
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Post by matureleft on Jul 8, 2022 5:10:28 GMT
There must have been entryism some extent, the membership five years earlier pretty much voted for David Miliband. Or did that many members really shift leftwards? there was a leftward shift but it's a mistake to think that Corbyns rise was just ideological. Corbyn won 38% amongst members who joined prior to 2010 Indeed. I was mildly surprised at how many people I knew had voted for him. I had the advantage (or disadvantage) of seeing him in action for quite a while so wasn't very surprised at how things went, both in terms of his own actions (although his 2017 campaign was better than I'd expected) and the behaviours of others.
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,525
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 8, 2022 10:26:02 GMT
He was a bit of a "none of the above" too, I feel. Protest votes. Yes, that was definitely a part of it. Blairite types had so alienated many even normally pretty moderate Labour folk, that there was a widespread sentiment of "f*** it, elect him and see what happens".
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Post by matureleft on Jul 8, 2022 10:51:10 GMT
He was a bit of a "none of the above" too, I feel. Protest votes. Yes, that was definitely a part of it. Blairite types had so alienated many even normally pretty moderate Labour folk, that there was a widespread sentiment of "f*** it, elect him and see what happens". And we saw what happened!
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,525
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Post by The Bishop on Jul 8, 2022 10:57:51 GMT
Yes, that was definitely a part of it. Blairite types had so alienated many even normally pretty moderate Labour folk, that there was a widespread sentiment of "f*** it, elect him and see what happens". And we saw what happened! Well as a seasoned observer like you will know, most if not all political careers end in failure There is maybe an alternative timeline where he steps aside not that long after his 2017 high point.
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Post by mattbewilson on Jul 8, 2022 11:10:20 GMT
Bishop is right though. If anyone is to blame it's those who precipitated the rise of Corbyn
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Post by stb12 on Jul 8, 2022 18:09:40 GMT
He was a bit of a "none of the above" too, I feel. Protest votes. Yes, that was definitely a part of it. Blairite types had so alienated many even normally pretty moderate Labour folk, that there was a widespread sentiment of "f*** it, elect him and see what happens". If that’s the case it makes me feel even more certain in my opinion that party members should not be involved in electing a leader (Tories and Labour I mean) Choosing the next PM or possible next PM should really be a responsibility taken seriously
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Post by aargauer on Jul 8, 2022 18:14:46 GMT
Yes, that was definitely a part of it. Blairite types had so alienated many even normally pretty moderate Labour folk, that there was a widespread sentiment of "f*** it, elect him and see what happens". If that’s the case it makes me feel even more certain in my opinion that party members should not be involved in electing a leader (Tories and Labour I mean) Choosing the next PM or possible next PM should really be a responsibility taken seriously Why isn't letting the membership decide "taking it seriously". I think the Conservative party membership will tend to pick the candidate most likely to win the election. We have a Parliamentary system, which means essentially it is wholly in the power of any party with a majority to pick the leader by any means they deem suitable. I think ours is a good system that gives members power whilst preventing a Corbyn type situation.
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Post by mattbewilson on Jul 8, 2022 18:18:01 GMT
Yes, that was definitely a part of it. Blairite types had so alienated many even normally pretty moderate Labour folk, that there was a widespread sentiment of "f*** it, elect him and see what happens". If that’s the case it makes me feel even more certain in my opinion that party members should not be involved in electing a leader (Tories and Labour I mean) Choosing the next PM or possible next PM should really be a responsibility taken seriously you'd be in the minority then. People on the whole think that members should pick and in a large number of western nations the members pick. It's the fault of the parliamentary party that we ended up with Corbyn. Don't punish members for being pushed into it by the PLP
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Post by stb12 on Jul 8, 2022 19:11:12 GMT
If that’s the case it makes me feel even more certain in my opinion that party members should not be involved in electing a leader (Tories and Labour I mean) Choosing the next PM or possible next PM should really be a responsibility taken seriously you'd be in the minority then. People on the whole think that members should pick and in a large number of western nations the members pick. It's the fault of the parliamentary party that we ended up with Corbyn. Don't punish members for being pushed into it by the PLP I don’t doubt I am and it comes from a place of not being a member or even feeling an affiliation to any party
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Post by mattbewilson on Jul 8, 2022 19:12:11 GMT
you'd be in the minority then. People on the whole think that members should pick and in a large number of western nations the members pick. It's the fault of the parliamentary party that we ended up with Corbyn. Don't punish members for being pushed into it by the PLP I don’t doubt I am and it comes from a place of not being a member or even feeling an affiliation to any party a large number of people aren't a member of any party and assume not affiliated. They still think members should pick
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Post by stb12 on Jul 8, 2022 19:23:24 GMT
I don’t doubt I am and it comes from a place of not being a member or even feeling an affiliation to any party a large number of people aren't a member of any party and assume not affiliated. They still think members should pick Yes what I’m getting at is I’m not just trying to be contrary with it I genuinely don’t see why the membership having a vote on the national leader really matters that much, it seems to me to be a club fee for a few access perks and a vote on local candidates not anything that significant. I’m not making out MPs are anything special or more intelligent but they’re the ones that ultimately need to work with the leader daily and them choosing makes sense I get the nomination process is meant to mitigate any huge variances but it didn’t stop Boris and Corbyn getting in when so much of the parliamentary parties clearly disliked them
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Merseymike
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Post by Merseymike on Jul 8, 2022 19:24:48 GMT
a large number of people aren't a member of any party and assume not affiliated. They still think members should pick Yes what I’m getting at is I’m not just trying to be contrary with it I genuinely don’t see why the membership having a vote on the national leader really matters that much, it seems to me to be a club fee for a few access perks and a vote on local candidates not anything that significant. I’m not making out MPs are anything special or more intelligent but they’re the ones that ultimately need to work with the leader daily and them choosing makes sense I get the nomination process is meant to mitigate any huge variances but it didn’t stop Boris and Corbyn getting in when so much of the parliamentary parties clearly disliked them I can't see any point in being a member if you can't even have any input into choosing the party leader
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Post by stb12 on Jul 8, 2022 19:28:44 GMT
If that’s the case it makes me feel even more certain in my opinion that party members should not be involved in electing a leader (Tories and Labour I mean) Choosing the next PM or possible next PM should really be a responsibility taken seriously Why isn't letting the membership decide "taking it seriously". I think the Conservative party membership will tend to pick the candidate most likely to win the election. We have a Parliamentary system, which means essentially it is wholly in the power of any party with a majority to pick the leader by any means they deem suitable. I think ours is a good system that gives members power whilst preventing a Corbyn type situation. I get what you’re meaning and the Conservative’s system is more limited but I do wonder how many MPs nominated Boris because the party membership would have been furious at him being denied the final two? It’s clear that there’s always been a great uncertainty about him from all wings of the parliamentary party and him getting in was a mixture of desperation over Brexit and grassroots pressure Voting for IDS over Ken Clarke in the 2001 contest seems like clearly a bad decision the Tory membership made as well
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