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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Dec 11, 2021 16:54:14 GMT
Labour helps start a war aggression in the Middle East that killed hundreds of thousands of people, destabilised the region and created a cascade of terror that we are still dealing with two decades later. They presided over the near financial collapse of the country, exacerbated by their own catastrophic irresponsible profligacy, and they play politics with the issue of the use of chemical weapons and allow that line to be brazenly crossed. What a load of crap. Liberating Iraq was not a "war of aggression" and you only make yourself look an idiot for echoing this stupid language. A war of aggression is one undertaken to gain territory and Iraq blatantly was not that. The terror attacks were going on long before March 2003 - Al Qaeda attacked Kenya and Tanzania in 1998. Typically idiotic for you to try to pretend the history of the middle east started on 18 March 2003 but then you are an idiot. Your dodgy language gives you away - "presiding over" simply means being in office at the time rather than attributing blame - but here's your biggest lunacy - the Labour government actually saved the world economic system and ensured it continued. Gordon Brown deserves the thanks of the world for what he did in 2008. But what do we then see? Having started with (a stupid) objection to the UK taking international military action against a genocidal middle east government, you then completely reverse yourself and make (a stupid) objection to the UK refusing to join international military action against a genocidal middle east government. Which is it you ineffable twit? The two cases were completely different. The invasion of Iraq was on a false prospectus. It also wasn't a "liberation". I don't think the families of the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis would feel liberated. Nor would Iraqis who are forced to live in a broken backed, unviable country that's awsh with militias and sectarian violence. On Syria, we'd issued a specific red line. A red line that was crossed and in order to maintain credibility we should've taken action. We didn't though, did we.
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Post by stb12 on Dec 11, 2021 16:56:24 GMT
The Scottish Party are too mealy-mouthed when it comes to disagreeing with the UK party, their language disagreeing with SNP Covid measures is notably more severe than when the same thing happens in England. So the independenct Scottish Tories line doesn't wash for me, Douglas Ross didn't even come across that strong over the party issue
As i've said many times keeping the Union together is probably my biggest passion as a non-aligned political person, but I'd struggle to even give the Conservatives a tactical vote if I lived in a Tory SNP two way fight right now even though I firmly believe in anti-SNP tactical voting. Being in East Kilbride it's not an issue for me at FPTP level anyway, but I certainly won't be giving them any preference in the local elections. And I did vote for the Tories multiple times throughout Ruth Davidson's leadership.
The kind of vehement denunciation you're after for would only be viable with CSUisation. Now, that's where I want to go, but I am satisfied with the outcome regardless of the rhetoric. The Scottish Conservatives aren't in favour of these restrictions and Douglas has even said the PM should resign if he's lied, which he may well have done. Rhetoric aside, I don't see how much further he could go within the party's current constitutional framework. Well the Scottish Conservatives elect their own leader so it's not like a Cabinet/Front bench position where you take collective responsibility or get sacked. I think when it comes to Covid for them to be credible it has to be said both governments have been as bad as each other, explicitly call for a return of furlough to accomodate future lockdowns to be ruled out etc. Obviously I get that being in what is still the same party makes it difficult but tough times call for difficult decisions. And you seem to be using the Scottish Party's differences as a reason to still stick with them David so i'm saying if that's the case you really should look for them to go further
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Post by batman on Dec 11, 2021 16:59:12 GMT
The hypocrisy of this sort of hysterical sentiment is always interesting to me. Labour helps start a war aggression in the Middle East that killed hundreds of thousands of people, destabilised the region and created a cascade of terror that we are still dealing with two decades later. They presided over the near financial collapse of the country, exacerbated by their own catastrophic irresponsible profligacy, and they play politics with the issue of the use of chemical weapons and allow that line to be brazenly crossed. Then, they began to indulge in extremist and racist rhetoric around Jews, Jewish people and Jewishness that we have not seen in this country's mainstream politics since the Holocaust. They've given succour to terrorists and their backbenches are filled with people who should literally be classed as national security threats. Yet, the excesses of the Boris Johnson government, which I will take no lessons from anyone in condemning, somehow means that we Conservative members face threats of violence and are "beyond redemption". Despite the fact that much of the Conservative backbench, the Scottish Conservatives and the Conservative Party membership all profoundly oppose these changes. So much so, that it's only getting through on Labour votes and we all know we'd be heading into yet another lockdown if they were in power. Frankly, it seems to me that this situation speaks well of the Conservative membership. It shows that it doesn't matter how good Boris has been for us, and how much of an asset he allegedly is, we'll still oppose him on principle. So, perhaps there should be a little more nuance to these wild and ridiculous denunciations? that's pretty unfair. Whatever Richard Allen may have said, it is hardly appropriate to blame him for or associate him with military action in Iraq. Even many of us who are, unlike Richard, on the Labour side publicly opposed it in any case - had I been an MP, I would have voted against the government on the issue, as did over 100 Labour MPs. If Tony Blair himself had made the accusation, or someone very strongly supportive of him, then your comment might have been fairer.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Dec 11, 2021 17:02:11 GMT
What a load of crap. Liberating Iraq was not a "war of aggression" and you only make yourself look an idiot for echoing this stupid language. A war of aggression is one undertaken to gain territory and Iraq blatantly was not that. The terror attacks were going on long before March 2003 - Al Qaeda attacked Kenya and Tanzania in 1998. Typically idiotic for you to try to pretend the history of the middle east started on 18 March 2003 but then you are an idiot. Your dodgy language gives you away - "presiding over" simply means being in office at the time rather than attributing blame - but here's your biggest lunacy - the Labour government actually saved the world economic system and ensured it continued. Gordon Brown deserves the thanks of the world for what he did in 2008. But what do we then see? Having started with (a stupid) objection to the UK taking international military action against a genocidal middle east government, you then completely reverse yourself and make (a stupid) objection to the UK refusing to join international military action against a genocidal middle east government. Which is it you ineffable twit? The two cases were completely different. The invasion of Iraq was on a false prospectus. It also wasn't a "liberation". I don't think the families of the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis would feel liberated. Nor would Iraqis who are forced to live in a broken backed, unviable country that's awsh with militias and sectarian violence. On Syria, we'd issued a specific red line. A red line that was crossed and in order to maintain credibility we should've taken action. We didn't though, did we. Yes Iraq was based on false information, but a lot of your opinion is based on informed hindsight. At the time we went in, it was not generally known that the information was false or that the US would fuck it up after occupation. It was known that Saddam was gasing his own people. A lot of people opposed it never the less, but suggest it was a war of aggression is simplistic and carefully ignores 1990 when Iraq invaded Kuwait, this is a factor in the invasion a decade later. Labour fucked up Iraq and got punished, Labour sorted the 2008 crash more than most political parties around the world, but still got punished. Time for the Tories to be punished now for Covid deceptions. The Vaccine success doesn't mitigate, for me against the rest of the disaster. My vote moves, but I'm not a party man, unlike my dad. Sounds like your somewhere in between.
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Post by batman on Dec 11, 2021 17:03:37 GMT
And also, the idea that any Labour MP is a "national security threat" is hysterical nonsense. It's one thing to say that you revile them or totally disagree with them, even to say they have views you regard as racist. They are all arguable. The idea they pose a serious threat to national security is the stuff of fantasy.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Dec 11, 2021 17:13:12 GMT
The kind of vehement denunciation you're after for would only be viable with CSUisation. Now, that's where I want to go, but I am satisfied with the outcome regardless of the rhetoric. The Scottish Conservatives aren't in favour of these restrictions and Douglas has even said the PM should resign if he's lied, which he may well have done. Rhetoric aside, I don't see how much further he could go within the party's current constitutional framework. Well the Scottish Conservatives elect their own leader so it's not like a Cabinet/Front bench position where you take collective responsibility or get sacked. I think when it comes to Covid for them to be credible it has to be said both governments have been as bad as each other, explicitly call for a return of furlough to accomodate future lockdowns to be ruled out etc. Obviously I get that being in what is still the same party makes it difficult but tough times call for difficult decisions. And you seem to be using the Scottish Party's differences as a reason to still stick with them David so i'm saying if that's the case you really should look for them to go further I don't know what to do, but I would find it highly difficult to abandon my friends and colleagues in the Scottish Conservatives when this isn't on them. I also sympathise with the idea that we must be as forceful with the Westminster government as the Holyrood one, but the difficulty is that the Holyrood government has gone further on restrictions, and, if we were to do that, we'd also be handing them a weapon to attack us with in relation to the union. We're, the Scottish Conservatives, in a tight spot at the moment, I don't deny that.
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European Lefty
Labour
Can be bribed with salted liquorice
Posts: 5,491
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Post by European Lefty on Dec 11, 2021 17:17:50 GMT
Until the next time they do something that you think is to your personal disadvantage when you won't be able to drop them fast enough
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Post by carlton43 on Dec 11, 2021 22:16:31 GMT
"I hate everything this government is doing, but I'll still vote for them anyway" isn't going to make them change their behaviour, is it? And I can't understand why anyone would automatically switch to Labour if you oppose restrictions anyway. Both of the main two are just two cheeks of the same arse at the moment. Exactly, I can't really believe it but I am now looking into the policies of Reform and Reclaim as I am now considering them as my probable main voting options if they stand. Me of just 3 years ago would have been horrified, but that is what happens when there is no difference between all the major political parties. Reclaim is more 'Us' old chap. Very anti-Lockdown, very opposed to political correctness and as far from alt.woke as one can get.
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Post by andrew111 on Dec 11, 2021 22:42:58 GMT
Exactly, I can't really believe it but I am now looking into the policies of Reform and Reclaim as I am now considering them as my probable main voting options if they stand. Me of just 3 years ago would have been horrified, but that is what happens when there is no difference between all the major political parties. Reclaim is more 'Us' old chap. Very anti-Lockdown, very opposed to political correctness and as far from alt.woke as one can get. And pith helmets, don't forget the pith helmets!
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Post by monksfield on Dec 12, 2021 14:39:42 GMT
Stop taking the pith Andrew
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Post by andrew111 on Dec 12, 2021 14:51:48 GMT
Stop taking the pith Andrew I believe carlton43 is an Empire Loyalist, Loud and Proud, so he won't mind!
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Post by jm on Dec 17, 2021 13:21:04 GMT
BossMan I have today rejoined the Labour Party, please add me to the Labour Group on the forum.
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Post by BossMan on Dec 17, 2021 14:54:22 GMT
BossMan I have today rejoined the Labour Party, please add me to the Labour Group on the forum. Done.
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Post by greenchristian on Mar 3, 2022 23:35:29 GMT
I notice that rcronald is now displayed as Likud
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Post by Pete Whitehead on Mar 3, 2022 23:41:49 GMT
I notice that rcronald is now displayed as Likud That's a relief. I thought he'd defected to United Russia..
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Post by rcronald on Mar 4, 2022 3:44:28 GMT
I notice that rcronald is now displayed as Likud That's a relief. I thought he'd defected to United Russia.. Im anti-Ukrainian not pro Russian and softening daily 😅 (still funny though).
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Post by rcronald on Mar 4, 2022 3:46:19 GMT
I notice that rcronald is now displayed as Likud Ive been a registered member of Likud for more then six months in real life, but only changed the label when I felt more integrated to Israeli society.
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Post by rcronald on Mar 4, 2022 3:52:12 GMT
I notice that rcronald is now displayed as Likud Yes, but I didn’t really defect. Ive been a registered member of Likud for more then six months in real life, but only changed the label when I felt more integrated to Israeli society. Thank you for pointing out though!
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Mar 5, 2022 22:50:47 GMT
I notice that rcronald is now displayed as Likud That's a relief. I thought he'd defected to United Russia.. Didn't United Russia try to run a minor Israeli party as its sock-puppet? Back in the Sharon era (Ariel, not Birds of a Feather).
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The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
Posts: 36,488
Member is Online
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Post by The Bishop on Apr 16, 2022 10:19:02 GMT
From their perhaps ironically "liking" some rather old posts of mine, I can see that mrsir has moved from Conservative to Liberal.
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