Eastwood
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Posts: 2,086
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Post by Eastwood on Apr 16, 2021 10:36:39 GMT
That doesn't make any sense. It does when you consider the facts. 1/ there is no group of workers more incestuous than Drs. They marry each other. There are sound reasons for this, they are brought together at 18 and stay together for at least five, usually more, years, largely restricted to their own small group. They are usually from broadly similar social backgrounds, comfortable middle class. They are going to be high earners. Now men might be happy to marry beneath themselves for a hot babe, women are not, they hope to marry at least their social equal. Female Drs are attracted to male doctors for sound biological reasons. Male Doctors are attracted to female Drs because they are available and making themselves available. 2/ Hospital medicine is highly competitive and attritional. You do not get to be a consultant swanning in three days a week. You do not get to be a consultant by going off on maternity leave three times in six years when you were a registrar. Or by needing the weekends and evenings off. As such, consultants are overwhelmingly male. 3/ General practice by contrast pays roughly the same pro-rata as being a consultant, but you do get to swan in three days a week, and have the weekends off. 4/ Men want a career. This validates them as men. Women want to have it all. Of course, if she is a department manager at B&Q, she is well aware that she won't get to be a deputy by announcing that she would like to job share or go part-time and in any case she will find that £12k a year leaves money a bit tight. In General Practice by contrast a woman can pick up £60k a year for a three-day week and have it all. 5/ Particularly if her husband is earning the same or more because 1/ Fair points although out of date in terms of female Doctors not being Consultants. Most non surgical hospital specialties are at least 50/50 if not majority female at trainee level these days. On your point re couples Medics are pretty incestuous in marriage but not that much more than other professions. My social circle at University was medics and I ended up married to one despite not being a medic so I think the social aspect is more significant than the salary point you make. I think I probably know more female medics married to non medics than I do male medics married to non medics. So I’m not convinced there is a strong gender differential either.
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Eastwood
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Post by Eastwood on Apr 16, 2021 11:21:00 GMT
I also note that my asking questions about the NHS is defined as moaning, even when it isn't. I guess were still not allowed to ask questions our almighty health service, ever. That may seem cynical, but it is the impression that is coming across from it at the moment. Fair enough to complain, I don’t think the current structure of UK healthcare is perfect. Was just pointing out a lot of your posts consist of whinging without suggesting practical, workable alternative solutions. Which sometimes comes across a bit “Destroy capitalism and replace it with something nicer” Is the proposed remedy worse than the illness?
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iang
Lib Dem
Posts: 1,523
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Post by iang on Apr 16, 2021 12:16:47 GMT
It does when you consider the facts. 1/ there is no group of workers more incestuous than Drs. They marry each other. There are sound reasons for this, they are brought together at 18 and stay together for at least five, usually more, years, largely restricted to their own small group. They are usually from broadly similar social backgrounds, comfortable middle class. They are going to be high earners. Now men might be happy to marry beneath themselves for a hot babe, women are not, they hope to marry at least their social equal. Female Drs are attracted to male doctors for sound biological reasons. Male Doctors are attracted to female Drs because they are available and making themselves available. 2/ Hospital medicine is highly competitive and attritional. You do not get to be a consultant swanning in three days a week. You do not get to be a consultant by going off on maternity leave three times in six years when you were a registrar. Or by needing the weekends and evenings off. As such, consultants are overwhelmingly male. 3/ General practice by contrast pays roughly the same pro-rata as being a consultant, but you do get to swan in three days a week, and have the weekends off. 4/ Men want a career. This validates them as men. Women want to have it all. Of course, if she is a department manager at B&Q, she is well aware that she won't get to be a deputy by announcing that she would like to job share or go part-time and in any case she will find that £12k a year leaves money a bit tight. In General Practice by contrast a woman can pick up £60k a year for a three-day week and have it all. 5/ Particularly if her husband is earning the same or more because 1/ Fair points although out of date in terms of female Doctors not being Consultants. Most non surgical hospital specialties are at least 50/50 if not majority female at trainee level these days. On your point re couples Medics are pretty incestuous in marriage but not that much more than other professions. My social circle at University was medics and I ended up married to one despite not being a medic so I think the social aspect is more significant than the salary point you make. I think I probably know more female medics married to non medics than I do male medics married to non medics. So I’m not convinced there is a strong gender differential either. [br My experience is that teachers tend to marry other teachers (me included). Maybe there is just a general tendency, partly for some of the reasons given above, for people to form relationships with people in the same or similar line of work?
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,607
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Post by J.G.Harston on Apr 16, 2021 13:53:29 GMT
There is a shortage of GPs because more than half of them are women. That doesn't make any sense. Not just maternity leave as mentioned downthread. Women are much more likely to want to, and follow through by choosing to work fewer hours than men. Very broad brush strokes, but a practice with 5 men might get you 200 hours doctorin' time per week, a practice with 5 women might get you 125 hours doctorin' time per week because they freely choose to do less work. Same number of bodies, less work done. This was never taken into account on the way towards 50/50 male/female staffing, but the facts were there on the ground observable for decades.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Apr 16, 2021 13:56:16 GMT
I wasn’t getting at you, it comes to the same thing in the end - give GPs enough money that people want to do the job. It’s just that the partnership model (which I believe is an almost unalloyed good thing) makes it a but more complicated. In this context as most GPs are not motivated by money (or at least any more money than they need to live comfortably) giving them more money can end up with each individual working a bit less and more being needed.
I know you weren't it is indeed something that would need to be fitted into any redesign equation.
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J.G.Harston
Lib Dem
Leave-voting Brexit-supporting Liberal Democrat
Posts: 13,607
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Post by J.G.Harston on Apr 16, 2021 14:00:03 GMT
you have a point, part of the answer lies in some of the issues Mr Dr Eastwood raises - its not just the money we have to ask why Doctors would rather earn less and work less if possible Work/Life balance. If I can get a better life by working less, even with a reduction in income, I'd do it, and so will the vast majority of humans.
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Apr 16, 2021 14:12:28 GMT
I also note that my asking questions about the NHS is defined as moaning, even when it isn't. I guess were still not allowed to ask questions our almighty health service, ever. That may seem cynical, but it is the impression that is coming across from it at the moment. Fair enough to complain, I don’t think the current structure of UK healthcare is perfect. Was just pointing out a lot of your posts consist of whinging without suggesting practical, workable alternative solutions. Which sometimes comes across a bit “Destroy capitalism and replace it with something nicer” Is the proposed remedy worse than the illness?
Or we're not be capitaslistic enough, or the mix is wrong. Personally I have no problem with radical solutions. That we could make it worse is a bad reason for doing nothing. I'm a lay person, and I'm meant to come up with the solutions, says it all really, vested health interests don't want change ever, just look at the USA as the ultimate proof.
I do think we need a preventative rather than a reactive health service, but given vested interests I doubt it'll ever happen, especially now with Covid, where for the next decade as arse covering becomes the primary policy. Overall going forward health care will be poorer for the foreseeable future than it was, because policy will make it so.
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Post by dundas on Apr 16, 2021 14:20:31 GMT
I doubt maternity leave is a major feature for GPs given their average age. The part-time issue is only significant if you insist on counting the number of employees rather then the number of FTEs. People who go part-time would often quit if they couldn't go part-time, which is even worse. Women over 40 bear more children than women under 20.
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Post by maroiogog on Apr 20, 2021 20:09:17 GMT
not really a defection per say as I never had a party role, but I'd like to be roled as labour, thanks.
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Richard Allen
Banned
Four time loser in VUKPOTY finals
Posts: 19,052
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Post by Richard Allen on Apr 20, 2021 20:09:58 GMT
not really a defection per say as I never had a party role, but I'd like to be roled as labour, thanks. BossMan
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Post by bjornhattan on Apr 20, 2021 20:17:30 GMT
not really a defection per say as I never had a party role, but I'd like to be roled as labour, thanks. All sorted. You will just need to go into your profile, click Edit Profile, go into the Settings, and change your Display Group to Labour.
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Post by aidypiez on May 1, 2021 17:15:28 GMT
BossMan if possible can you add me to the lib dem group? Thanks
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Post by BossMan on May 1, 2021 20:56:58 GMT
BossMan if possible can you add me to the lib dem group? Thanks Done.
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Post by stb12 on May 16, 2021 12:03:36 GMT
Would it be possible for me to be set as non-aligned?
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Post by swanarcadian on May 16, 2021 12:05:26 GMT
Would it be possible for me to be set as non-aligned? BossMan can do that.
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Post by bjornhattan on May 16, 2021 12:09:33 GMT
Would it be possible for me to be set as non-aligned? BossMan can do that. Not just him.
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Post by stb12 on May 16, 2021 12:19:25 GMT
Thank you, will make good use of it by using opportunities to criticise all parties
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Post by islington on May 16, 2021 15:42:07 GMT
May I be switched from 'anti' to 'pro' ward-splitting, please?
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Khunanup
Lib Dem
Portsmouth Liberal Democrats
Posts: 11,516
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Post by Khunanup on May 16, 2021 19:01:42 GMT
May I be switched from 'anti' to 'pro' ward-splitting, please? About bloody time...
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Post by islington on May 16, 2021 19:43:12 GMT
May I be switched from 'anti' to 'pro' ward-splitting, please? About bloody time... Luke 15:7
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