The Bishop
Labour
Down With Factionalism!
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Post by The Bishop on Apr 9, 2020 12:22:31 GMT
OK the first point was a bit of a dig, but the second was meant seriously (I don't know how familiar you are with the Atlas Forum, but it can certainly get heated there)
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Post by carlton43 on Apr 9, 2020 12:31:12 GMT
Sibboleth only lasted a week. By the time I knew about it he was gone. He was the Derbyshire Police of mods By contrast, I don't know if you remember my time. I moderated in the style of an absentee landlord in Ireland in 1844. Benign neglect. Occasional inappropriate comments. Which I have since sought to cut out. I'd forgotten Sibboleth had even been a mod. I do remember your time . . . 'FORGOTTEN'!! He nearly single-handedly wrecked the entire Forum in one week.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 12:34:40 GMT
OK the first point was a bit of a dig, but the second was meant seriously (I don't know how familiar you are with the Atlas Forum, but it can certainly get heated there) I have looked in on Atlas a couple of times, but didn't feel tempted to join.
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Post by tonygreaves on Apr 9, 2020 15:11:41 GMT
Liverpool even have two Executive Mayors! Completely bonkers. Pendle even have two council leaders. Completely bonkers. Not true. There is a leader and a deputy leader. There used to be some Councils with Joint Leaders of Joint Admnistrations long ago before new legislation codified the position of Council Leader which meant it had to be one person. (Never in Pendle). Odd really since Co-this and Co-that is a relatively recent idea imported into mainstream politics from student politics, I think. The Liberal Democrats at present have Acting Co-Leaders (or perhaps Co-Acting Leaders?) for another year and more. Stupidity.
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 10, 2020 11:14:07 GMT
Well, I've been a Labour member with a couple of breaks for more than half my life, so I don't regard non membership as normal....but it's certainly something of a relief!
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Post by Davıd Boothroyd on Apr 10, 2020 11:17:42 GMT
I have an old fashioned belief that you commit to a party, not to its leader for the time being.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2020 11:29:33 GMT
I have an old fashioned belief that you commit to a party, not to its leader for the time being. aye, I've often heard the analogy that parties aren't football teams but I must confess I'm more loyal to the Labour Party than i have been to Arsenal FC
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Post by Daft H'a'porth A'peth A'pith on Apr 10, 2020 11:31:01 GMT
I have an old fashioned belief that you commit to a party, not to its leader for the time being.
That was my dad's view; commit to your party through thick and thin, fighting for your views whether you are in the minority or majority at any given time.
That works fine if your views generally fit within one parties house, which his always did, mine don't.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2020 11:40:10 GMT
I have an old fashioned belief that you commit to a party, not to its leader for the time being.
That was my dad's view; commit to your party through thick and thin, fighting for your views whether you are in the minority or majority at any given time.
That works fine if your views generally fit within one parties house, which his always did, mine don't.
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I'd be surprised if that's the case for most members. I would say my views and David's couldn't possibly fit into one house. You hear the expression broad church alot but there is a limit to that. Broadly the party is able accommodate some of mine and some of David's. We could take the view that that's not enough or instead I would prefer more but I can do more within
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 10, 2020 11:45:46 GMT
I have an old fashioned belief that you commit to a party, not to its leader for the time being. I understand that view but it's never been where I've stood. For me a party is nothing more than a vehicle to achieve what you want politically, and once it stops being that remaining in it doesn't make sense. It doesn't have anything to do with the leader as such but what they represent - though I haven't hidden the fact that I have a visceral negative reaction to Starmer. I think of a football team in that way. I support Everton. I couldn't just switch to another team - but a football team and it's fans are literally a tribe. I don't think of a political party in the same way.
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Post by Devil Wincarnate on Apr 17, 2020 9:57:48 GMT
I grew up supporting East Fife, on the basis of them being local and not sectarian. Of course supporting East Fife is like supporting the National Health Party, worthy but irrelevant. I realised when I was 52 that I have spent more than half my life in Aberdeen and semi switched my allegiance to them. And now my wife has switched our allegiance to Dundee Stars. And of course Aberdeen now has two professional sides. Is that the first time ever?
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Post by finsobruce on Apr 17, 2020 17:04:36 GMT
Its a matter of definition, in the modern professional era Aberdeen has been a one club city, Cove Rangers were an amateur outfit who joined the Highland league, which is semi (if that) pro, then sought progression into the Scottish league, which hat the lower levels is also barely paid. To call Cove a Pro side is stretching it. Aberdeen is still a one club city. Scotland can only really sustain about 16 genuine pro sides. A club called Aberdeen Rovers were beaten 35-0 by Dundee Harp on the same day that Arbroath beat Bon Accord 36-0 (12th Sept 1885). The story is that they actually lost 37-0 but the officials lost count. Bon Accord were also from Aberdeen.
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Post by finsobruce on Apr 17, 2020 19:31:49 GMT
Bon Accord were, and still are, a cricket club It is the city's motto They certainly are/were. Stephen Pile's "Book of Failures" recounts the story that they turned up in unsuitable gear for the game, which is why they lost so heavily, although as Aberdeen Rovers showed, people were quite capable of doing it even if wearing correct footwear.
However, it may be a bit more complicated than that. Dr John Webster Liberal MP for Aberdeen is recorded in 1881 as agreeing to become the patron of the Bon Accord football club and there are newspaper references to a team called Bon Accord playing football around this time.
In January 1885 Bon Accord are recorded as beating the aforementioned Aberdeen Rovers 5-3 "under Association rules", which along with other references suggests that they may have played both codes (rugby and football), or that there was a clubs with the name in both codes. (in the following month incidentally the Bon Accord distillery burnt down with up to 20,000 gallons of whisky lost).
A report in March records the fortunes of one James Smart of the "late Bon Accord Football club", who has gone to play the game in Wales with some success with Neath. He is clearly called a "rugby football player". Does this mean the rugby club with the name had folded?
A report in May records the participation in a long distance race of several members of the Bon Accord cycling club. There was also a Bon Accord pigeon racing club and a Bon Accord swimming and Humane society.
The Dundee Courier reported the famous match in its edition of Monday 14th September "One of the drollest seen here or anywhere else, and defies description", but obviously hadn't thought it important enough to send a reporter "Though unable to describe the match we can report the score". It was in this report that we have the description of the Arbroath keeper, Milne sheltering under an umbrella for the whole game.
There is a much longer report of the 35-0 defeat of Aberdeen Rovers, who they found in a masterpiece of understatement indulged in "mediocre play" and noted that "their custodian gave a particularly week - kneed exhibition of goal keeping". It notes that Rovers had only played one game before, a defeat to ......Bon Accord. This was obviously a different game to the one noted in January, taking place on Saturday 5th September 1885.
(I should probably move this to the Scottish Football thread).
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Post by andrewteale on Apr 18, 2020 8:20:23 GMT
Its a matter of definition, in the modern professional era Aberdeen has been a one club city, Cove Rangers were an amateur outfit who joined the Highland league, which is semi (if that) pro, then sought progression into the Scottish league, which hat the lower levels is also barely paid. To call Cove a Pro side is stretching it. Aberdeen is still a one club city. Scotland can only really sustain about 16 genuine pro sides. A club called Aberdeen Rovers were beaten 35-0 by Dundee Harp on the same day that Arbroath beat Bon Accord 36-0 (12th Sept 1885). The story is that they actually lost 37-0 but the officials lost count. Bon Accord were also from Aberdeen. Another story about that game is that it was played before goal nets were invented, so every time a goal was scored somebody had to waste time hoofing off behind the Bon Accord goal to collect the ball. Otherwise Arbroath would have won even more heavily.
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Post by Merseymike on Apr 18, 2020 8:42:21 GMT
I'm sure we have to threads for sports...
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Post by finsobruce on Apr 18, 2020 8:42:29 GMT
A club called Aberdeen Rovers were beaten 35-0 by Dundee Harp on the same day that Arbroath beat Bon Accord 36-0 (12th Sept 1885). The story is that they actually lost 37-0 but the officials lost count. Bon Accord were also from Aberdeen. Another story about that game is that it was played before goal nets were invented, so every time a goal was scored somebody had to waste time hoofing off behind the Bon Accord goal to collect the ball. Otherwise Arbroath would have won even more heavily. It's possibly true - it is also claimed in both this and the Dundee Harp/Aberdeen Rovers game that goals were missed or disallowed. The weather was pretty terrible that day so if the ball hit the ground after going in it probably wouldn't have gone very far. The first patented goal nets appeared in 1891, but I presume some must have used one before this.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 5:06:44 GMT
David to Forum Regular?
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jun 8, 2020 6:52:42 GMT
I remain a member of the Conservative Party, for now. However, I am deeply disillusioned. We've seen a Conservative government commit to a disastrous lockdown and truly vast spending to sustain it. Police have been arresting and fining people for the most benign reasons imaginable, like going for a walk. Yesterday, we saw thugs tear up and down Whitehall, attacking the police, abusing animals and desecrating the Cenotaph. The response from the supposedly Conservative government has been lacklustre to say the least. There are good and decent people in this party, Sajid, Penny, Dominic, Kemi, Priti and Boris, but I'm disappointed by it. There are also other reasons for my disappointment, the failure to suspend the repulsive member for Delyn is one. Also, during my membership of the Conservative Party we achieved more than I ever dreamed we would. Leaving the EU, Australian style points based system, a commitment to civil service reform and so on. Yet, there's more to do and I don't believe the Conservative Party is the vehicle for that. I look forward with anticipation to Farage's next project. We need it, now more than ever.
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Post by Merseymike on Jun 8, 2020 7:35:17 GMT
I remain a member of the Conservative Party, for now. However, I am deeply disillusioned. We've seen a Conservative government commit to a disastrous lockdown and truly vast spending to sustain it. Police have been arresting and fining people for the most benign reasons imaginable, like going for a walk. Yesterday, we saw thugs tear up and down Whitehall, attacking the police, abusing animals and desecrating the Cenotaph. The response from the supposedly Conservative government has been lacklustre to say the least. There are good and decent people in this party, Sajid, Penny, Dominic, Kemi, Priti and Boris, but I'm disappointed by it. There are also other reasons for my disappointment, the failure to suspend the repulsive member for Delyn is one. Also, during my membership of the Conservative Party we achieved more than I ever dreamed we would. Leaving the EU, Australian style points based system, a commitment to civil service reform and so on. Yet, there's more to do and I don't believe the Conservative Party is the vehicle for that. I look forward with anticipation to Farage's next project. We need it, now more than ever. Obviously I am in a different political place to you, but certainly share your disillusionment with the way the party system has developed. Both parties are trying to appeal to what they see as a middle ground. It does mean that we have ended up in terms of the lockdown, with what is effectively a consensus despite the surface-level disagreement. In a perverse way I would rather have a situation where the reaction if government dislodge the illogical support for lockdown on the left, although their actions in demonstrating don't reflect that stated belief. The problem with any new project is that the chances of it succeeding are very small simply because of the electoral system. I simply don't see anything being able to dislodge the two main parties.
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Post by Forfarshire Conservative on Jun 8, 2020 7:39:34 GMT
I remain a member of the Conservative Party, for now. However, I am deeply disillusioned. We've seen a Conservative government commit to a disastrous lockdown and truly vast spending to sustain it. Police have been arresting and fining people for the most benign reasons imaginable, like going for a walk. Yesterday, we saw thugs tear up and down Whitehall, attacking the police, abusing animals and desecrating the Cenotaph. The response from the supposedly Conservative government has been lacklustre to say the least. There are good and decent people in this party, Sajid, Penny, Dominic, Kemi, Priti and Boris, but I'm disappointed by it. There are also other reasons for my disappointment, the failure to suspend the repulsive member for Delyn is one. Also, during my membership of the Conservative Party we achieved more than I ever dreamed we would. Leaving the EU, Australian style points based system, a commitment to civil service reform and so on. Yet, there's more to do and I don't believe the Conservative Party is the vehicle for that. I look forward with anticipation to Farage's next project. We need it, now more than ever. Obviously I am in a different political place to you, but certainly share your disillusionment with the way the party system has developed. Both parties are trying to appeal to what they see as a middle ground. It does mean that we have ended up in terms of the lickdown, with what is effectively a consensus despite the surface-level disagreement. In a perverse way I would rather have a situation where the reaction if government dislodge the illogical support for lockdown on the left, although their actions in demonstrating don't reflect that stated belief. The problem with any new project is that the chances of it succeeding are very small simply because of the electoral system. I simply don't see anything being able to dislodge the two main parties. I've always been against PR, but perhaps that's what we need. It's clear that the main parties now represent few. That's unsustainable in a democracy.
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